UN LIBRARY 
UN/SA COLLECTION 
UN INTERVIEW / MAR 2 3 1994 
Pauline Frederick ' 
July 11. 1986 
Interviewers: Norman Ho 
and Leanore Silvian 
Table of Contents 
Bokhari 33,34 
Broadcast on Hammarskjold's Death 1 
Charter 14 
China 4 
Congo 4.6,17,23,28 
Feller, Abe 12 
de Gaulle, Charles 9 
Jacobsen, Max 19 
Lie, Trygve 11,12,26,36 
Lodge, Henry Cabot 12 
"Man Against Fear" 6 
Markings 2 
McCarthy Era 12,13,26 
Meditation Room 3,10 
Narasimhan, C.V. 8 
Papadoquino, G. 23,24 
Release of US Flyers 4 
Ridder of Times of London 30 
Rockefeller Family 29 
Small Nation Representation 14-17 
Soviet Union 4,6,7,12,17,19,20,23 
Stevenson, Adlal 13 
Thant, U 9.29 
"Together" Article by Hammarskjold 5 
"Triad" 15 
UN Communications 11 
UN Correspondence Association 21,32 
UNEF 3,22 
UN Press Desk 25 
Waldheim, Kurt 8,9,19,20,21,29 
UNST 
DPI 
ORAL 
HISTORY 
(02J/F852 
7/11/86 
Eng. 
Cop.l 
Interview with Pauline Frederick, . 
' UN LIBRARY 
Conducted by Norman Ho, and Leanore S i l v i a n . t , uN/SA COLLECTION 
11 J u l y , 1986 , V , A 
NOV 11 J993 
HQ: Thank you, and now, would you care to make any comments', twenty-five 
years after that broadcasted? 
FREDERICK: Yes, looking back on the United Nations since Dag Hammarskjold's 
death, I would say that Hammarskjold's greatest f a u l t was his dedication to 
find i n g the answer to what he believed was man's greatest prayer, which asks 
not for v i c t o r y , but for peace. In a day when victory i s s t i l l our goal, even 
though there can be no v i c t o r y , t h i s peacemaker was s a c r i f i c e d . And so w i l l 
the UN be one of these days, on the a l t a r of m i l i t a r y might, u n t i l there i s 
acceptance by a l l that^ the salvation of the Nuclear Age l i e s on the 
conference table, not on the b a t t l e f i e l d . 
HQ; some months af t e r Hammarskjold*s death, you were asked by the editor of a 
magazine i n Sweden to write an a r t i c l e which would attempt to "throw l i g h t , 
not just on the public servant, but on the man himself, during the l a s t days 
\ 
SILVIAN: Going back to what you were saying, don't you think i t was quite a 
remarkable thing that the new Secretary-General did i n getting Spain and—was 
i t Spain and France together, just l a s t week? 
Hp: Yes, but we don't want to bring him into i t , do we? 
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SILVIAN: No, but I mean, I was absolutely s t a r t l e d and amazed that he had 
been able to achieve t h i s sort of thing. That was not what you were getting 
with Waldheim, or anything that you've been getting i n the l a s t — 
HQ: No,' but t h i s interview i s about Dag Hammarskjold. 
SILVIAN; I know, but are you not contrasting him with other 
Secretaries-General, or not? 
FREDERICK; Well, since I don't know the present one, personally, I don't f e e l 
that I can comment on him very w e l l . 
SILVIAN: Very good, I think that makes sense. 
HQ: Well, l e t ' s get back, I think to the o r i g i n a l . . . Some months a f t e r 
Hammarskjold's death, you were asked the editor of a magazine i n Sweden to 
write an a r t i c l e which would attempt to "throw l i g h t , not on just the p u b l i c 
servant, but on the man himself, during the l a s t days, weeks, and months of ° 
his l i f e . " I haven't seen the published a r t i c l e among your papers, but can 
you t e l l us what the g i s t of i t was? 
FREDERICK: What I t r i e d to say was that Dag Hammarskjold was a very d i f f e r e n t 
person from the one known p u b l i c l y . And, one of his great differences was 
that he was a very r e l i g i o u s person, almost a mystic. That, of course, came 
out l a t e r in his book . . . c a l l e d Markings. . . . Dag Hammarskjold . . . 
SILVIAN; He wasn't r e l i g i o u s in that he subscribed to any . . . organized 
r e l i g i o n , was he? 
FREDERICK: No. . . . He was not r e l i g i o u s i n the sense of belonging to some 
creed, or church. His was more a universal kind of human brotherhood 
r e l i g i o n . And he brought i t to bear on his concept of the Meditation Room at 
the United Nations, which we've already talked about. 
HQ: We must soon bring t h i s interview to a close, and I should l i k e to ask 
you some questions of a more general nature. How would you evaluate Dag 
Hammarskjold i n his role as Secretary-General of the United Nations? 
FREDERICK: Dag Hammarskjold i s i d e n t i f i e d more with the United Nations, 
probably, than any other Secretary-General. He was a leader, and . . . he 
gave the UN a role i n peace-making, as well as i n peace-keeping.- And many of 
his i n i t i a t i v e s i n those two areas have lasted over u n t i l t h i s day, although 
they haven't been carr i e d out completely. 
HO: What were some of his most valuable, or s i g n i f i c a n t contributions to the 
Organization? 
FREDERICK: Well, i n peace-making, he had a major role i n t r y i n g to restore 
order to the Middle East, during that period. And i n peace-keeping, he had 
the d i s t i n c t i o n of helping to originate the UNEF operation, which separated 
I s r a e l and Egypt, the m i l i t a r y forces of I s r a e l and Egypt. UNEF, united 
Nations Emergency Force, which was the f i r s t big peace-keeping operation of 
the United Nations, and set a standard for others. 
HO: But, I mean, what do you personally most remember Hammarskjold for? 
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FREDERICK: I remember him very much as a man who had apparent solutions to 
many problems, not complete solutions, but at l e a s t , knew how to move them o f f 
dead center, where a c o n f l i c t was brewing. And that goes for many of the 
issues a f t e r he went to China, to gain release of the American f l y e r s . That 
was unique for a Secretary-General, and a f t e r that, i t seemed to me that we « 
a l l expected him to something about any of the major c o n f l i c t s that were 
raging. And he did t r y . He wasn't always successful, but he did t r y . 
HO: How do you think the United Nations might have progressed d i f f e r e n t l y i f 
Hammarskjold had l i v e d on to serve one or more additional terms? 
FREDERICK:" I don't think Hammarskjold would have had another term, because 
the Soviet union was already dead set against his staying in that o f f i c e . He 
had turned out to be more than an administrative o f f i c e r . He had taken the 
lead in t r y i n g to resolve some of the big problems before the world. And, as 
a consequence, the Soviet Union didn't want anything to dt> with him, 
p a r t i c u l a r l y after the Congo, when they f e l t that he wasi,hiding with the 
United States i n the Congo, and t r y i n g to keep the Soviet Union out. 
HO: As a f i n a l question, I would l i k e you to read parts of the broadcast 
which you made for the NBC Radio Network, on 17 September 1962, just one year 
a f t e r Hammarskjold died. 
FREDERICK: I said at the time, "One year has passed. In a tree-shaded 
churchyard i n the old university town of Upsala, Sweden, a simple granite 
headstone marks the resting place of a famous son between his parents, 
brooded over by a great slab, with the one word, 'Hammarskjold', engraved on 
i t . There are always flowers on the grave, frequently a single white rose. 
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Sometimes a yellow rose, sometimes three yellow ones t i e d together. Trees, 
blossoms of every season. In the distance i s the red turreted castle where 
Dag Hammarskjold grew up, and the university he attented, and the cathedral 
from which he was buried, and the tombs of the Viking kings. Another man w i l l 
s i t in the once vacant chair i n the Assembly podium. But t h i s i s the day of 
remembrance. After Dag Hammarskjold's death, I received a copy of what must 
have been one of his l a s t w ritings. I t appeared i n the magazine 'Together', a 
publication for Methodist f a m i l i e s . What he wrote then i s as pertinent for 
today, w i l l be for many years to come. Here are Dag Hammarskjold*s words:" 
•The work for peace must be animated by tolerance," Dag Hammarskjold 
said , "and the work for human r i g h t , by the respect for the i n d i v i d u a l . " "To 
some, the word 'tolerance' may sound strange i n a time of Cold War, and 
negotiations from positions of strength, i t may have an overtone of weakness 
or appeasement, and yet, have we reason to believe," asked Hammarskjold 
r h e t o r i c a l l y , "that what was there in the past i s no longer true? I t i s not 
the weak, but the strong who practice tolerance, and the strong do not weaken 
th e i r postion i n showing tolerance. On the contrary, only through tolerance 
_£an_they j u s t i f y t h e i r strength i n the face of these counteracting forces that 
t h e i r own stcength sets i n motion." "This holds true of a l l those i n the 
present world s i t u a t i o n who may be, or consider themselves to be strong," Dag 
Hammarskjold said, "be i t the i n d u s t r i a l i z e d West, i n r e l a t i o n to the 
underdeveloped countries, be i t the Powers whose m i l i t a r y resources give them 
key positions, or be i t those who have achieved a state of democracy toward 
which others are s t i l l groping." And he went on, "Heaven arms with p i t y those 
whom i t would not see destroy. Over the ages and over the continents, these 
words j o i n i n those of solaced, 'There i s forgiveness with thee that thou 
mayest be feared.'" The words of Dag Hammarskjold on t h i s Memorial Day. 
i 
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HO; Thank you very much, Pauline. 
(Informal interview Begins) 
HO: OK, so now, what are we going, to talk about informally? 
FREDERICK; Well, I suppose we want to talk about the c h a r a c t e r i s t i c s of Dag 
Hammarskjold, and what sort of a legacy he l e f t at the UN. 
HQ; Yes. w e l l , what about the c h a r a c t e r i s t i c s of Dag Hammarskjold, f i r s t , 
before the legacy? 
FREDERICK: Well, I once did a . . . l i t t l e piece about him, which I c a l l e d 
"Han Against Fear," because, i t seemed to me that, of a l l things, Dag 
HAmitiafSkjSld was courageous i n taking positions. And, i f he hadn't been, he 
wouldn't have g^rEten into trouble with the Soviet Union, over the Congo. But 
he was very courageous because he thought i t was only right that the Congo 
should be saved for the future, and therefore, i t was necessary to send i n the 
United Nations troops. 
HO: Yes. so f a r you've talked about courage, but there are a number of other 
q u a l i t i e s besides. I would say there i s i n t e g r i t y , i s an important one, and 
i n t e l l i g e n c e , to the point of b r i l l a n c e . What about some of those other 
attributes? 
FREDERICK: I think you have summed them up very nicely .in that Dag 
Hammarskjold had a super i n t e l l i g e n c e , and he was a man of great i n t e g r i t y . 
I t would be d i f f i c u l t to believe that he did anything underhanded, in that 
tr y i n g to bring nations together to t r y to solve some of these problems . . . 
and that because of the fact that he was strong and courageous, and as he once 
t o l d me, got out i n front where he knew he'd be a target. That was the reason 
why he incurred the d i s l i k e of the Soviet Union, and th e i r e f f o r t to t r y to 
unseat him as Secretary-General. 
HO: Lee, do you have anything to ask on t h i s p a r t i c u l a r issue? 
SILVIAN: I, unfortunately, have met never the gentleman, but he does seem to 
have stood out among a l l the Secretaries-General, and yet, he must have been a 
very d i f f i c u l t man as far as a reporter i s concerned. 
FREDERICK: Oh, exceedingly so. I said to him one day, "You know Mr. 
Secretary-General, i f you would only take a strong stand on some of these 
controversial issues that are coming up, you'd give us reporters something to 
do, we'd be able to report." And he said, "Well, I f e e l t h i s way: that I'm 
l i k e the parents of a wayward son, who do not scold the son while he i s i n the 
midst of the c r i s i s , but wait u n t i l that passes, and before he gets involved 
i n another one, they t r y to reason with him, and explain the facts of l i f e . " 
. . . And I asked, "well how does a bachelor know about these things?" And he 
said, "But I have nieces and nephews." 
SILVIAN: And didn't he also always refer to the UN as his family? 
FREDERICK: He referred to the UN as " t h i s House", and gave i t a family 
connotation everytime he had a chance, especially in his speeches.-
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SILVIAN: And then, also I heard you say something about his temper, i f t h i s 
i s the man who preserved his cool i n diplomatic r e l a t i o n s , but he had to blow 
off steam occasionally. And who were the targets of that temper?' His closest 
aides? 
FREDERICK: I don't' know. 
HO: I don't think you could say "targets" of the temper, because the temper 
must have directed at against . . . other people besides his aides. But I 
know that he must have had people that he could, sort of, unload, and Pauline 
you probably could remember better than I some of the people, c e r t a i n l y those 
next to him, l i k e Cordier, and Brian nrquhart, and of course, Ralph Bunche— 
FREDERICK: — t h e Indian, what was his name?—Narsimhan. 
HO: Oh, Narsimhan. Yes, c.V. Narsimhan. 
FREDERICK: He had d i f f i c u l t y with him, didn't he? 
HQ: Well, I don't know that you can say that C.V. had d i f f i c u l t y with 
Hammarskjold, but I think that he was probably one of the people to whom 
Hammarskjold was able to speak. But again, I say, i t not be unloading his 
temper against them. 
SILVIAN: But just blowing off steam for a p a r t i c u l a r s i t u a t i o n . 
Ho: Yes. i n stark contrast to Kurt waldheim, who was known to have t e r r i b l e 
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temper tantrums, and we l l , we won't go into that for the purposes of t h i s . 
FREDERICK: Well, I was thinking that, whether he sounded off toward General 
de Gaulle or not, he and General de Gaulle did not see eye to eye on A l g e r i a . 
And I would assume that some place along the l i n e , some hot words were traded 
there. And De Gaulle was the only head of state who didn't send condolences 
to the UN at the time of Dag Hammarskjold's death. 
HO: Well, de Gaulle was known to be a character i n his own r i g h t , but I think 
that what we are t r y i n g to talk about i s Hammarskjold, who was not simply a 
character, but a character who . . . k e p t his own personal feelings down 
within a much larger d i s c i p l i n e , i n which he was constantly of aware of the 
needs and welfare of other people, other i n t e r e s t s . I think he was a 
s e l f - s a c r i f i c i n g man. 
SILVIAN: Well, he sounds more s a i n t l y , from what I'm hearing. Would you go 
that far? That he r e a l l y believed a n d — 
* 
HQ: Well, I think that would be unfair to him, but he was c e r t a i n l y 
absolutely unusual. 
FREDERICK: You could say that he was a mystic, i f you want to go that f a r , i n 
the r e l i g i o u s connation. 
HO: And U Thant used to pride himself on being a mystic. And, U Thant was 
another Secretary-General, whose personal i n t e g r i t y was not questioned. 
FREDERICK: That's r i g h t . And he meditated everyday, as a Buddhist. 
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SILVIAN: Did Hammarskjold go down to the Meditation Room frequently, for a 
moment of solace, or anything? 
FREDERICK: I don't whether he did alone or not 
HO: No, but there's one episode that you described e a r l i e r , where he went 
down at two o'clock in the morning and a l l his close colleagues thought that 
he wanted to go down to meditate, or something l i k e that. Whereas, i t turned 
out t h a t — h e always took a vexy close . . . supervision of the creation of 
Meditation Room. I t was his own creation. I t turned out that, when they got 
down to the Meditation Room at two o'clock that morning, they found that he 
had a crew" of painters at work, and then, Pauline t o l d us about he did, about 
supervising the painting. 
SILVIAN: But they had a l l - n i g h t crews at the UN, i s that i t ? 
HO: No. There are ce r t a i n services of -the UN that are supposed to working at 
a l l times. The Security Council, for example, i s supposed to av a i l a b l e , 
twenty-four hours a day, three hundred and s i x t y - f i v e , or s i x t y - s i x days a 
year. So the Security Council i s i n continuous session. Now, when i t ' s 
necessary, the UN people, at a l l l e v e l s , are supposed to be at the disposal of 
the Secretary-General, twenty-four hours a day. 
SILVIAN; But I assume the cleaning crews normally work at night, i s that 
right? 
HO: Oh, yes. i t ' s done for reasons of economy and so f o r t h , i t ' s the best 
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way possible. But there are always times, and exigences of circumstances, 
which may require people to work at odd hours. 
FREDERICK: Norman, the Cable Office would be running a l l night, wouldn't i t ? 
HO: .Oh yes, of course. Not only the Cable Of f i c e at Headquarters, but a l l 
f 
the multitudinous UN communications i n s t a l l a t i o n s a l l over the world. I t ' s 
a l l on a twenty-four hour-a-day basis. 
FREDERICK: And especially when the Secretary-General would be away. 
HO: When the Secretary-General was away, he always kept i n close contact. 
And I think t h i s the practice of a l l the Secretaries-General, with 
Headquarters. 
SILVIAN: Am I wrong, but, didn't that t e r r i b l e incident where at point the US 
had'insisted on having security clearance of a l l i t s people at the UN, do you 
remember? - . . . . . . 
FREDERICK: Yes indeed I remember. 
SILVIAN: And L i e apparently had gone along with i t . And, did Hammarskjold do 
anything about reversing that? 
FREDERICK: No, i t didn't have to be reversed, as f a r as I know. It. was just 
an incident that the United States permitted i t s police force to enter the UN, 
which was supposed to be a — 
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HO: This was during the McCarthy Era, as you w i l l remember, Pauline. 
FREDERICK: —supposed to be a secure enclave, not to be violated by any of 
the nations. But, i t was Henry Cabot Lodge that went into the United Nations 
to check on American employees to make sure they were l o y a l to the United 
States Government. 
HO: What happened, as I r e c a l l , was that, and I remember because there was-a 
meeting of the S t a f f Association at the time. I t was Trygve Lie who had given 
permission to the United* States a u t h o r i t i e s , the FBI I think i t was, to 
conduct t h e i r investigations and t h e i r interrogations of American s t a f f 
members right on the premesis of the United Nations. This gave ri s e to a 
ce r t a i n amount of indignation among the s t a f f , non-Americans, as well as the 
Americans. 
FREDERICK: Yes, and one member of the s t a f f committed suicide over i t , didn't 
he? 
HO: Yes. That was Abe F e l l e r , the Chief Legal Counsel. We don't know 
o f f i c i a l l y why he committed suicide, but i t seems f a i r l y obvious that t h i s 
t e r r i b l e s i t u a t i o n which had been fomented by McCarthy, and his supporters. 
FREDERICK: This intrusion into the United Nations was so unique that i t never 
happened before or since, as f a r as I know, but curiously enough, the Soviet 
Union, as far as I know, did not make any complaint about i t , did i t ? 
HO: I'm not quite sure what you mean, the Soviet Union has not made any 
complaint about what? 
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SILVIAN: About the invading t h e — 
FREDERICK: — t h e American FBI going i n . 
HO: I can't remember anything o f f i c i a l . But then perhaps, they would l i k e 
would to do the same thing themselves. 
FREDERICK: Maybe they were already there, (laughter) 
SILVIAN: I'm curious to—wonder why you think that the UN i s no longer held 
in such high regards? 
FREDERICK: Well, I t e l l you. Adlai Stevenson said, when he was ambassador, 
that i f the UN was not in existence, i t would have to be invented. But I 
think Stevenson was thinking about the UN as i t should have been, and was 
meant to be, rather than what i t i s . He didn't foresee the helplessness of 
the Organization in t r y i n g to deal with international c o n f l i c t s , or threatened 
c o n f l i c t s . I t , of course, has become a valuable world h a l l , as contrasted 
with town h a l l , where each nation has a r i g h t , and does, speak i t s peace. 
But, u n t i l , i f ever, nations agree to forego t h e i r emphasis on t h e i r own 
sovereignty, to the detriment of the solution of international problems, the 
UN w i l l never be--achieve what i t was meant to be. And that i s , to t r y to 
solve some of the c o n f l i c t s on the conference table instead of on the 
b a t t l e f i e l d . 
SILVIAN: Well, you s t i l l f e e l that i t w i l l go on? But also, i t seemed to me 
that the nations were sending more highly respected people to represent them 
at the UN in the old days, than they are now. I t seemed to me that some of 
the best men were going, the best men or women. 
* 
FREDERICK: Well, that's p e r f e c t l y true, Lee. And frequently, the head of the 
delegation would be a Foreign" Minister. And, i f he wasn't . . . at the head 
of the delegation then, i t wouldn't be long before having served as Foreign 
Minister, he came as head delegate to the UN. So there were outstanding 
pe r s o n a l i t i e s at the UN i n those days. 
HQ: Well, you have'to remember that in those days, there were only f i f t y - o n e 
Members of the United Nations, and i t was immediately following the Second 
World War, when so many people were hopeful that the world could achieve some 
of the aims and purposes of the united Nations, as expressed i n the Charter. 
The Charter herself stands, but the enthusiasm about the United Nations, not 
only on the part cf people who work for the UN, as been diluted by the 
tremendous increase in size of the Organization, both in Membership, and in 
the s i z e of the s t a f f . The Secretariat of the United Nations now i s f e e l i n g 
that problem, because of budgetary d i f f i c u l t i e s . 
SILVIAN: A l l the countries have to be represented, but i s there any way that 
either of you can think of that they can be more e f f e c t i v e , even though they 
are so large in Membership? 
FREDERICK: Well, there's a great deal of c r i t i c i s m on the part of Americans 
who don't understand what the UN i s a l l about. C r i t i c i s m to the effect that, 
these l i t t l e nations l i k e Zambia, and Cyprus, and so on, have one vote, along 
with the United States, one vote, so that anything you t r i e d to right that 
wrong, would -raise a huge howl of some kind, because everybody wants to have 
- \5 
an equal voice, just as they do in the House of Representatives. 
SILVIAN: Well, have you any suggestions on what they might do? 
FREDERICK: I haven't any, but I know that one suggestion going around i s 
cal l e d the "Triad", which i s supposed to be an e f f o r t to get a l l v o t e s — 
HQ: As d i s t i n c t from the "Troika", (laughter) 
FREDERICK: That's r i g h t , which i s what the Russians wanted to put i n after 
Dag Hammarskjold's death, and even before his death. But, the "Triad" i s 
supposed to t r y to count votes in the General Assemly on the basis of 
population and economic strength, and so on, so that the l i t t l e nations 
wouldn't get the same kind of vote that United States and the Soviet Union 
would have. 
SILVIAN: what do you think of that? 
FREDERICK: I don't think i t w i l l work. 
HO: Well, in any case, the l i t t l e nations don't have the same kind of vote as 
the United States and the Soviet Union, plus the three other Permanent Members 
of the Security Council. That difference i n vote was considered, at the 
beginning, to be necessary i n order to compensate for the enormous differences 
i n s i z e , power, and wealth of the Member Nations. And that was when the 
membership of the UN was less than one t h i r d of what i t i s now. . . . Well, I 
think we're wandering away from Hammarskjold. 
- 16 -
SILVIAN: Well, did Hammarskjold ever talk about having such a large . . . 
membership? 
FREDERICK: I don't r e c a l l that he did, because he wouldn't have attacked the 
small nations, and they were the ones that r e a l l y made up the overbalance of 
power. 
HO: In the very beginning, you know, countries smaller than some of our 
present Member States, who applied for membership, l i k e Monaco, and t h e — -
FREDERICK: Holy See. 
HO: The Holy See i s another one, but that's not quite the same as the small 
States l i k e Monaco, and Lichtenstein, and Andora ,, . . . They did apply f o r 
membership, but they were rejected, on the grounds that they were too small. 
Now, of co u r s e — 
SILVIAN: Aren't they i n now? 
HO; No. 
SILVIAN; They don't l i k e to be twice spurned, i s that i t ? 
FREDERICK: I don't know what the answer i s to t h i s problem. I'm not sure 
- 17 -
that i t ' s - a problem, i t just means that i f the small nations don't want 
something to pass in the General Assembly, they can stack up the votes against 
i t . 
HQ; Pauline, to get us back to Hammarskjold, what do you think Hammarskjold * 
might do about the United Nations and i t s present unhappy state of a f f a i r s i f 
he were here, and could do something about i t ? 
FREDERICK: Well, a l l I can say i s that, one time, when he t a l k i n g about the 
Russians, Soviet Union, he said his greatest regret was that he wasn't able to 
do anything about the attitude of the Soviet Union, and . . . 
Secretary-General Hammarskjold i s said to have had one deep regret about the 
c r i s i s between the United States and the Soviet Union over the Congo. And 
that was the Soviet Union's break i n relations with him, had denied him any 
opportunity to t r y do something about t h i s s i t u a t i o n . 
SILVTAN; I didn't quite understand, why were the Russians so angry,'vith him 
over the Congo? 
FREDERICK: Because they wanted to get a foothold in A f r i c a , and p a r t i c u l a r l y 
i n the Congo, because of the so r i c h Katanga. And as a matter of f a c t , they 
backed Lumumba and Tshombe in the Katanga. 
HO: Except that the part of the Congo which they a c t u a l l y went into was the 
Northern part,Stanleyville and so f o r t h . But, they were interested i n the 
Congo as a whole. 
SILVIAN: Then they were w i l l i n g to have an unholy a l l i a n c e with the Union 
- 18 -
Muniere t then, i s that right? 
FREDERICK: I think so. 
HO: I'm not sure about that. 
SILVIAN: w e l l , because they were the major inte r e s t s in there, were they not? 
HQ: But there were so many other powers, including the United States, I think 
which had kind of an unholy a l l i a n c e — 
FREDERICK: But I remember hearing that Dag Hammarskjold said that he wanted 
to be sure that communism was kept out of the Congo. And that would mean he'd 
have to side with the United States. And the United States was using him for 
a while, wouldn't you say? . 
HO: Well, yes. C e r a t i n l y , Hammarskjold's great fear was that the Congo would 
become the theatre of confrontation between the forces that were of allegiance 
to the United States and the Soviet Union, and that could have led d i r e c t 
conflict'between the two great super-Powers. 
FREDERICK: And especially i n A f r i c a , which was very dangerous. 
HO: Well, I'm sorry, I interrupted you, or rather Lee interrupted you, b u t — 
SILVIAN: I did? (laughter) 
FREDERICK; Well you see how much Dag Hammarskjold depended on private 
diplomacy, and quiet diplomacy, whichever you want to c a l l i t , because he said 
that he did not have an opportunity to t r y to work out t h i s Big Power c r i s i s , 
and that was one of his great regrets. And he couldn't talk to the Russians 
in p a r t i c u l a r , because they had decided they weren't going to recognize him 
anymore, i n order to t r y and get.him out of o f f i c e before he was k i l l e d . 
SILVIAN: So, how did they get together on waldheim, and after? 
FREDERICK: The Security Council got together on Waldheim. . . . I think he 
was one of two candidates; the other one was from Finland. . . . Max Jacobsen, 
wasn't i t ? 
HQ; (correcting her pronunciation) Max Jacobsen. 
FREDERICK; Max Jacobsen, who was Foreign Minister of Finland. He was the 
other candidate. 
J 
L
 1 
HQ: Who would have made a wonderful Secretary-General. 
FREDERICK; Yes, but the United States and the Soviet Union fixed on Kurt 
Waldheim. As a consequence, there was no major opposition to him i n the 
Security Council. 
SILVIAN: Why do you think they favored him? 
HO; Excuse me, there was opposition to him—major. I understand that i n the 
secret b a l l o t s , which the Security Council takes on such matters, that for 
thirt e e n b a l l o t s , both the United Kingdom and China, as Permanent Members, 
- 20 " 
voted against Waldheim. And so, there was considerable opposition. And, I 
don't know what made them both cave i n , but i t was when they both caved i n 
that Hammarskjold i n f a c t — a n d when he was up for r e - e l e c t i o n , he f a i l e d the 
l a s t time, because only one Permanent Member of the Security Council refused 
to go along with him, and that was China. 
SILVIAN: Why do you suppose both the United states and Russia favored 
Waldheim's candidacy? 
FREDERICK: Well, there are a l l kinds of rumors about. Who knows? I don't 
know anything at f i r s t hand. 
HO: Well here again I think we're wandering away from our subject, which was 
Hammarskjold. 
SILVIAN: Well, but I think i t shows how i t ' s almost an accident when you get 
a completely neutral man who i s named the Secretary-General. 
HO: Well, i t ' s an extremely d i f f i c u l t — a s Pauline explained to us e a r l i e r , 
the requirement of the concurring votes of a l l f i v e — 
SILVIAN: Security Council Members— 
HO: But largely the super-Powers, the United states and the Soviet Union. I 
think Waldheim was a rare, and hopefully, a largely rare occurance. 
SILVIAN; w e l l , t h e y ' l l probably s t r i k e a l l that, I should think. But you 
were t a l k i n g f r e e l y before, and you both said that you f e l t that both the 
- 21 -
United States and Russia were aware of Waldheim's backround. 
HO: Well, that's speculation. 
SILVIAN: Well, what i s the speculation? 
FREDERICK: Aware of his backround, and therefore they could control him 
better. . . . That's what Norman said. Now, I'm not surprised at that. I can 
see that's possible. But I don't have anything at f i r s t hand, and I don't 
l i k e to put i t on tape, unless I do. 
SILVIAN: OK. I t took you a long time r e a l l y , not a long time, but, u n t i l 
Hammarskjold intervened and offered to go to China to t r y to release the 
f l y e r s . But, p r i o r to that time, had you had much occasion to be with him, or 
d i d — t h e great respect that you had for him seemed to have begun with the 
China s i t u a t i o n , was that true? 
FREDERICK: I was very surprised and pleased that he would take that 
i n i t i a t i v e . But my association with him was warmer and more frequent when I 
became President of the UN Correspondence Association. That was 1958. 
Ho: Yes, I remember, because you mentioned about how, when there were formal 
stag dinners, you would be the only woman present i n your capacity as the 
President of the Correspondence Association, and i t was your duty then to act 
as a pool correspondent i n such a f f a i r s . But I think there was a very unusual 
guide, I don't r e c a l l any other p i e c e — c e r t a i n l y not that early i n 
Hammarskjold's career—where he was as close as he was with you. I refer to 
the time when he was f l y i n g out to Egypt to accompany the f i r s t contingent of 
22 -
the United Nations Emergency Force. And you were on the same plane with him 
from New York to I t a l y , and— 
SILVIAN: were you the only correspondent on the plane? 
FREDERICK: Yes. 
HQ: Did you know that he was going to be on the plane? 
FREDERICK: Oh, yes. The NBC people c a l l e d be the night before and told me 
what plane he was going to be on, and said I must get on that plane. So, I 
talked to some of h i s aides and they were a l l sort of aghast that there'd be 
a correspondent on the plane. But f i n a l l y , they said i t was OK, and I got my 
t i c k e t , and got on. 
HO; Yes, but, then I understand that, at one point, you were in the seat next 
to him, and you had a chance to talk with him. 
FREDERICK; Yes, well we talked a b i t that night, early i n the morning, 
because i t was quite l a t e when he came aboard, and . . . I had a chance to 
talk with B i l l Renallo, his bodyguard, and another man who was with him. And, 
we talked a b i t , and we reached Rome. The Secretary-General sent me a l i t t l e 
note saying that he was sorry to cause me any d i f f i c u l t y i n getting a story, 
but he wondered i f we couldn't sip some brandy and sort of, t a l k . And then he 
tol d me the story of a man who had given up his berth on the plane so Dag 
Hammarskjold could rest that night, and how kind he thought i t was. And then 
I was able to obtain, i n the next few days, the l i t t l e note that he had sent 
to the daughter of t h i s man to thank her for her . . . f a t h e r ' s generosity. 
- 23 -
And . . . 1 said, "What kind of a man do you think Dag Hammarskjold i s ? " And 
she said", "I think he's the kind of man we need to make peace." 
HO: Yes. Well, that's that same t r i p . . . when you were able to see Dag 
Hammarskjold, and I understand that you took one leg of the journey—-he was on 
his way to the UN m i l i t a r y staging area. 
FREDERICK: That's r i g h t , around Naples. 
HO; I t i s , i t ' s Papadoquino(?), I think. But you had a chance to ride with 
him i n the next seat. 
FREDERICK: That's r i g h t . 
HO; And what did you talk about? 
FREDERICK: Well, we talked i n general about a number of things; but he said 
very c l e a r l y that he was quite aware of the fact that when you step out i n 
front i n a s i t u a t i o n , you can become a target. And he was quite aware of the 
fact that he would someday become a target, which of course, he did. But not 
over the Suez C r i s i s so much as the Congo. And when we reached Rome, one of 
his close f r i e n d s , who was helping as an aide, came and asked me . . . one of 
very close f r i e n d s , who was acting as a kind of an aide to him, came up to me 
and said, "Would you l i k e to go down to Naples?" And I said, "Would I ? I " And 
he said, "Well, they have to very careful about t h i s , because there are a l l 
kinds of people waiting to go." Espec i a l l y correspondents, they wanted to go 
down to Naples, too. so, he took me out back of plane, and i t was an I t a l i a n 
A i r Force plane we were going to go i n . He took me out back of the plane, and 
smuggled me aboard, so to speak, so that when Dag came aboard, there I sat. 
And so, we had a chance to do a l i t t l e chatting on the way down to Naples. He 
was explaining to me that he couldn't possibly i n t o Egypt with the UNEF 
forces, because they were f l y i n g i n Swiss planes, and he couldn't possibly 
take somebody not associated with the UNEF forces aboard. So, I had to l e t go 
at Naples. , 
HQ: Good old George. I didn't know was behind that, but he did the same 
thing so many times when I was i n the Congo as spokesman. And I o f f i c i a l l y 
had to know nothing about i t , but he smuggled a number of correspondents onto 
UN planes, from Leopoldville to Katanga. 
SILVIAN; He had a better sense of public relations than Mr. Hammarskjold. 
FREDERICK: And he was very close to Dag. He never forgave himself for not 
being on the pilane the day i t crashed. 
HQ; Well you know, I was supposed to have been on that plane. I never 
forgave Linner 5 for not l e t t i n g me go, because I f e l t that I should be. 
SILVIAN: How did you adress him? Was he so formal that you always had to 
c a l l him Secretary-General, o r — 
FREDERICK: Mr. Secretary-General, yes. 
SILVIAN: You did. You never would c a l l him Dag, or anything—Dag was only 
for t a l k i n g about him when he was not there. 
- 25 -
FREDERICK: That's r i g h t . 
HO: He was an amazing editor. I was i n charge of the Press Desk at the time, 
the UN Press Desk. And we would do t r a n s c r i p t s of his press conferences. The 
various verbatim reporters would come up and dictate from t h e i r stenotype 
notes d i r e c t l y to our t y p i s t s i n our typing pool. And, we at the desk would 
go through the s t e n c i l s , the carbons from the s t e n c i l s to catch any errors, 
and so f o r t h . And, we would send him up copies of our corrections and, i n 
spi t e of the fact that we had some of the best copy editors in the UN, he 
would succeed i n finding l i t t l e mistakes, and he'd do i t with enormous speed* 
He would put off his lunch u n t i l he'd gone through t h i s with his very neat 
l i t t l e n o t a t i o n s — 
FREDERICK: In blue-green ink. 
HO: Blue-green ink sometimes, sometimes red. And i t was amazing how accurate 
he was. 
SILVIAN: Did he primarily have lunch at his desk, or except f o r — 
FREDERICK: No. i n the dining room. 
HO: Yes, he went to the dining room, but at one time, I remember he even went 
across the street to a place c a l l e d "Ferdie's", also known as "the greasy 
spoon." 
SILVIAN: oh, I didn't think that was a greasy spoon, i t was pretty good. 
- 26 -
FREDERICK: But i n the main, he ate i n the dining room. 
HO; Yes. Unlike his predecessor Trygve L i e , when he f i r s t came into O f f i c e , 
on his way to his o f f i c e he would take the high-rise elevator to the 
th i r t y - e i g h t h f l o o r , which, in the past had always been, i f Trygve L i e 
arrived, he was taken up by himself, or with his immediate companions to the 
th i r t y - e i g h t h f l o o r . But Hammarskjold said "no, no"; he t o l d the elevator 
operator and the security people to l e t the other people who were going up i n 
the elevator to come i n . 
SILVIAN: He was not just security conscious? 
HO: I'm sure he was sec u r i t y conscious, although there was no where near the 
need for security that now, unfortunately e x i s t s . But he also made a point of 
. . . not putting his O f f i c e i n such a way t h a t — w e l l , just the elevator plea 
i s a perfect example. 
SILVIAN: He never threw his weight around, then. 
HO: No. . . . He often made a geniune, I think the sincere attempt to be just 
one of the UN people. 
FREDERICK: I think I r e c a l l seeing him i n the c a f e t e r i a one day, with the 
rest of the correspondents. And, I wanted to say that, when he arr i v e d , the 
morale at the UN was very low, because we'd been through the McCarthy Period, 
and Ambassador Lodge coming i n to check the l o y a l t y of Americans working f o r 
the UN. And, one of the f i r s t things Dag Hammarskjold did, as far as I can 
remember, was to go to every o f f i c e i n that building and shake hands with 
- 27 -
every single employee. I remember us coming down to the bullpen of the press 
section, and he had to shake hands with everybody, and have a word or two with 
them, which I think improved morale a great deal. 
SILVIAN: Was he always formal with you7 Were you always Miss Frederick, or 
were y o u — 
FREDERICK; Yes. 
SILVIAN: Never Pauline, o r — 
FREDERICK; Not to my face, (chuckling) whether he used i t behind my back, I 
don't know, he may have. 
HO: But another word about his dining habits, which r e f l e c t s the difference. 
Trygve Lie used to have table number one, in the delegate's dining room. 
That's the table i n the corner of the dining room, you know, the north-east 
corner. And Hammarskjold never took that table. When he did dine i n the 
dining room, i t was always at table number four, i f i t was vacant, (laughter) 
FREDERICK; That was along the side. 
HO: Yes, i t was along the north side. 
FREDERICK: Yes, I remember. 
SILVIAN: was he a man who arrived at the o f f i c e at s i x o'clock i n the 
morning, o r — 
- 28 -
FREDERICK: Well, sometimes he wouldn't go home, and stay a l l night, and 
work. Especially the night he went down to the Meditation Room. But once the 
troops were deployed, i n the Congo and elsewhere, he would work almost round 
the clock. 
SILVIAN: was his apartment near the ON? 
HO; He had, on the t h i r t y - e i g h t h f l o o r , as part of his o f f i c e , a su i t e . 
There was a small bedroom, and a bathroom, and a kitchenette, attached to i t . 
I don't think he used that much as a — I understand, the only person who ever 
used the bath i n the bathroom, was John F. Kennedy, when he came to make a 
speech, and he was having back trouble, so they cleaned the bathtub out f o r 
him, and they l e t him take a hot bath. 
SILVIAN: The UN doesn't maintain an apartment for the Secretary-General? 
HO; The apartment s t i l l e x i s t s . 
SILVIAN; No, I mean not in the UN b u i l d i n g , as far as a home quarters are 
concerned. 
HO; No, no, the UN provides the Secretary-General's accomodations. Trygve 
Lie had a rather luxorious i n Forest H i l l s . And, then, some very kind and 
wealthy people i n Sutton Place, who had a house i n Sutton Place made that 
available t o — 
FREDERICK; Wasn't i t the Rockefellers? 
HO: I don't know, w e l l , a c t u a l l y the whole property belonged to th£ 
Rockefellers, and the Rockefellers gave i t as a g i f t to the UN. I t was worth 
about eight and a half m i l l i o n d o l l a r s at the time, I think. But at the same 
time, after the UN had established i t s headquarters, the value of 
Rockefeller-owned properties a l l around the former UN s i t e , which as you know, 
used to be slaughterhouses, and very depressed, i t m u l t i p l i e d . So, whatever 
eight and a half m i l l i o n d o l l a r s , or whatever i t was the Rockefellers gave to 
the UN, was a very l u c r a t i v e g i f t for them i n the end. 
SILVIAN: But I didn't know Hammarskjold stayed at Sutton Place, did he? 
FREDERICK: No, they didn't have that house. 
HO: No, U Thant was Secretary-General when—yes.> And then of course, 
Waldheim succeeded. 
SILVIAN: so where did Hammarskjold .live? 
FREDERICK: Wasn't i t about sixty-second street? 
HO: Yes, he had an apartment i n town, and a had a place out i n — 
SILVIAN: Brewster. 
FREDERICK: Near Margie B r i t t e r ' s . 
SILVIAN: Did you ever go there? 
- 30 -
FREDERICK; Not to his house, but to the B r i t t e r ' s , I've been. Margie t e l l s 
about a couple of men coming up one day, and crossing her property, or 
something l i k e that. And she went out, and I think one of them was shooting 
something. I t doesn't sound r i g h t , but anyway, doing something that i s n ' t 
o r d i n a r i l y done there, and she went out and scolded the person, and said, "By 
the way, what's your name?" And i t was Dag Hammarskjold and B i l l Renallo. 
(laughter) 
SILVIAN; But, had he gotten f r i e n d l y with the neighbors there at a l l ? Did 
h e — a f t e r Ridder-\ had been a correspondent, had he not? 
FREDERICK; Ridder of Times of London. I don't think that—-I think that 
there's just that one time that he stopped there. He walking across the 
f i e l d , as he l i k e to walk, and be out of doors. 
SILVIAN; v I t was pretty hard to keep up with him when he went walking. i 
FREDERICK; Oh, he would s t r i d e . He wouldn't walk, he'd just s t r i d e . Even 
through the h a l l s , I could see him with a couple of aides going down the h a l l 
just way ahead of them. . . . And they were running, p r a c t i c a l l y to keep up 
with him. 
SILVIAN; He was fluent i n four languages, i s that right? 
FREDERICK: At least four. Swedish, English, French . . . 
HO: German, I'm sure he knew because he used read that German philosopher— 
31 
FREDERICK: Hans Bucher? 
SILVIAN: why, he translated that, didn't he? wasn't i t Martin Bucher? 
FREDERICK; Martin Bucher. 
HO: Martin Bucher, yes. 
FREDERICK: Martin Bucher, I think so. 
SILVIAN: where did he have time to this? He smoked c i g a r s , didn't he? 
HO: S m a l l — s m a l l cigars, yes. C i g a r i l l o s . 
SILVIAN: Can you smoke i n the Assembly, or i n the Security Council? Can they 
smoke there? 
HO: Oh yes. I f f a c t , they provide ashtrays. They used to, I assume they 
s t i l l do. 
SILVIAN: But, he was so formal and so d i s c i p l i n e d . Would he smoke i n the 
Assembly or would he—he was a doodler, wasn't he? 
HO: Smoking i n those days was generally done, as you might remember. Unlike 
nowadays. 
SILVIAN; was there anything that showed the correspondents* special respect 
- 32 -
or admiration for.him i n any way? Did they ever present him with anything, 
or—because I gather that the respect which you had for him was not 
extraordinary, that most of the reporters thought highly of him. 
FREDERICK: Well, I think that was true, but I don't know that we gave him any 
token of our regard. 
SILVIAN: You had him at the Correspondents' Association. Didn't he speak 
there? 
FREDERICK: Yes. 
SILVIAN: And did he then talked off the cuff? Because, as a one time 
reporter myself, I think he must have been the most subject to ever get a 
story from. 
FREDERICK: He was. {) 
SILVIAN: Did he ever talk off the cuff? 
FREDERICK; Not r e a l l y , (to Mr. Ho) You don't remember, do you? 
HO: Yes, I remember I used to go to a l l those UN Correspondents' Association 
Luncheons. Sometimes he could be quite witty, i n sort of off the cuf 
remarks. He had a sense of humor, too. That was one of the things that a 
alot of people forget. 
FREDERICK; Yes, he did have that, I can't remember anything . . . he was 
33 
very witty. Were you at the Correspondents' Luncheon when old Bokhari caved 
in? 
Hp; Yes. (laughter) 
SILVIAN: What do you mean? 
HO: Bokhari was a Pakistani who accompanied Dag Hammarskjold on his t r i p to 
Peking. And he was a rather odd person. I ' l l leave i t at that, (chuckles) 
He was b r i g h t — b r i l l a n t , a b r i l l a n t man, but rather odd. 
FREDERICK: An i n t e l l e c t u a l . 
SILVIAN: w e l l , what happened, at t h i s luncheon? 
FREDERICK: Well, Bokhari had been having some d i f f i c u l t y of some kind; we 
heard about i t , but we didn't see i t . And at t h i s luncheon, at the 
Correspondents' Luncheon, a l l of a sudden he started going down l i k e t h i s , 
(imitates Bokhari) 
SILVIAN: And he f e l l asleep? 
FREDERICK: No, no, he was s i c k , we assume he was s i c k . 
SILVIAN: Or maybe he had something to drink? 
FREDERICK: Well, Dag went over to him, and sort of pushed him around a l i t t l e 
b i t , and got him up, took him out. 
- 34 -
SILVIAN; w e l l , he does seem l i k e he's a most remarkable man. 
FREDERICK; He was. His l i k e w i l l not be seen again for a long time. Nobody 
would be s e l f l e s s enough to take that job. « 
HO; I remember when Bolhari came back with Hammarskjold after the t r i p to 
Peking. He gave a press conference, and, a l l he had to say about Peking—Well 
ac t u a l l y . . . Hammarskjold had a press conference, and Bokhari was present 
and was asked to answer questions too. He l a t e r became the acting head of the 
Department of Public Information. But, he was asked a number of questions, 
but the only thing that he could talk about was how cold i t was i n Peking, 
(laughter) which to me, being an old Pekinese, seemed to be a rather 
inadequate way to . . .(laughter) 
SILVIAN; How did Hammarskjold dress? Always i n diplomatic dark s u i t s , or 
did he ever wear a sports jacket, did h e — 
HQ; Bow t i e s , frequently. 
SILVIAN; Bow t i e s , well that would be i n d i c a t i n g — 
Ho: In summertime, (laughter) 
FREDERICK: I don't remember. I guess he wore a sports jacket. C e r t a i n l y , 
when he'd be out plowing around the countryside— 
- 35 -
SILVIAN: —away from the public eye. He was very neat, wasn't he? 
FREDERICK; Oh, yes. 
SILVIAN: Was he very neat i n his o f f i c e , too? Was he one of those executives 
that always had the clear desk? 
FREDERICK; I think he did. 
HQ: Yes, he was very neat. 
FREDERICK: Didn't he bring in the paintings from the modern gallery? 
SILVIAN: The Museum of Modern Art, you mean? 
FREDERICK: Yes. For his o f f i c e . They were borrowed. 
HO: Yes . . . on loan. They would make them available for him. so he had 
them hanging i n his o f f i c e . He also was one to whom, in the name of the 
United Nations, they loaned that lovely tapestry rendition of Picasso's "Woman 
Descending a Staircase", or ladder, or something, which was b e a u t i f u l . I t 
used to hang outside the South Lounge. 
SILVIAN: Well, he was very advanced in his f e e l i n g for a r t . 
HO: Yes. . . . Mind you, before he came, there were a l l kinds of so-called 
a r t objects given to the United Nations, despite the fact that when Trygve L i e 
• - 36 -
was Secretary-General, they had an int e r n a t i o n a l panel of a r t i s t s , 
world-famous a r t i s t s , to pass on the a c c e p t a b i l i t y of g i f t s of art . A l o t of 
junk was unloaded on the UN. (laughter) That Committee never met, as far as 
I know. But when Hammrskjold took over, there was a d i s t i n c t upgrading of 
t h e — 
SILVIAN; Tastes. 
FREDERICK; And he worked with the Committee in planning the concerts at the 
UN. 
HO: Oh yes. One time the security guards came out in new uniforms, looking 
l i k e sort of Texan types, you know, with the . . . black pocket covers and 
s t u f f , looking l i k e the rough— 
SILVIAN: —Texas, r i g h t . 
HO: Yes. And he took one look at them, on his way to the o f f i c e , and gave 
the order that those uniforms had to go. And, I guess, they did. . . . 
END OF INTERVIEW