03.10.03 
YUN INTERVIEW 
WILLIAM EPSTEIN  
OCTOBER 22, 23, and 25, 1990  
NEW YORK, NEW YORK  
INTERVIEWER, JEAN KRASNO 
JK: For the r e c o r d , Mr. E p s t e i n , c o u l d you e x p l a i n the r o l e t h a t 
you p l a y e d a t the time o f the e s t a b l i s h m e n t o f the S t a t e o f 
I s r a e l ? D u r i n g the y e a r s 1947 through 1949, where were you 
and what was your r o l e ? 
E p s t e i n : I was the a c t i n g c h i e f o f the M i d d l e East s e c t i o n o f 
the p o l i t i c a l d i v i s i o n o f the Department o f P o l i t i c a l and 
S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l A f f a i r s . The P a l e s t i n e i s s u e became a p a r t 
o f the purview o f the M i d d l e E a s t s e c t i o n . We had i n t h a t 
s e c t i o n an Arab by the name o f S a l e h Mahmoud. He s t a y e d a 
few y e a r s u n t i l about 1950 and then he went back t o 
government and became Ambassador. He i s dead now. Another 
man who got i n v o l v e d i n the P a l e s t i n e q u e s t i o n was a f e l l o w 
by the name o f B r i g a d i e r W i l l i a m s . He was an E n g l i s h m a n . I 
am a C a n a d i a n . He had been F i e l d M a r s h a l l Montgomery's 
i n t e l l i g e n c e o f f i c e r i n the M i d d l e E a s t . He was i n a 
d i f f e r e n t s e c t i o n i n the same department. When the B r i t i s h 
r e f e r r e d the whole q u e s t i o n t o the U n i t e d N a t i o n s i n 1947, 
Ambassador Arkady Sobolev, who was the head o f the P o l i t i c a l 
and S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l Department, asked each o f us t o do a 
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paper on what the P a l e s t i n e q u e s t i o n was a l l a b o u t . He 
wanted the Arab p o i n t o f view, the J e w i s h p o i n t o f view, and 
the B r i t i s h p o i n t o f v i e w . The B r i t i s h had the mandate over 
P a l e s t i n e a t t h a t time c o n t i n u i n g f rom the League o f N a t i o n s . 
They had r e f e r r e d the q u e s t i o n t o the UN and we had a 
s p e c i a l s e s s i o n on t h i s , the F i r s t S p e c i a l S e s s i o n . 
JK: That was about i n A p r i l o f 1947. 
E p s t e i n : R i g h t , e a r l y i n "47. 
JK: Would those papers be i n the A r c h i v e s ? 
E p s t e i n : They s h o u l d be. I d i d a paper t h a t c o n c l u d e d t h a t 
t h e r e was a t e r r i b l e gap i n the c o n f l i c t i n g p o s i t i o n s . The 
B r i t i s h had promised e v e r y t h i n g t o everybody. They had 
promised a J e w i s h n a t i o n a l home f o r the Jews i n the B a l f o u r 
D e c l a r a t i o n . Then they had promised the Arabs something, 
a l s o . Weizmann i n 1917 o r so had s i g n e d a document w i t h 
F e i s a l , who l a t e r became k i n g of I r a q t h a t s t a t e d t h a t 
P a l e s t i n e s h o u l d be bo t h a J e w i s h n a t i o n a l home o r s t a t e and 
an Arab s t a t e . He s i g n e d t h a t as l o n g as t h e r e i s t h i s Arab 
s t a t e we w i l l support the i d e a o f the J e w i s h s t a t e . When the 
mandate s t a r t e d under the League o f N a t i o n s i t cover e d b o t h 
banks of the J o r d a n R i v e r . The West Bank, as they c a l l i t 
now, and the East Bank which was Jo r d a n . Then i n 1922 when 
C h u r c h i l l was C o l o n i a l M i n i s t e r , they c u t o f f Jo r d a n which 
was then c a l l e d T r a n s j o r d a n . The Emir A b d u l l a h who was the 
g r a n d f a t h e r o r g r e a t g r a n d f a t h e r of K i n g H u s s e i n was t h e r e 
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and P a l e s t i n e was put under a new League mandate which had 
the purpose of e s t a b l i s h i n g a J e w i s h n a t i o n a l home w h i l e 
p r e s e r v i n g the c i v i l and p o l i t i c a l r i g h t s of the A r a b s . 
B r i t a i n was g i v e n the mandatory power by the League of 
N a t i o n s . I t was t o e s t a b l i s h a J e w i s h n a t i o n a l home i n 
P a l e s t i n e a c c o r d i n g t o the B a l f o u r D e c l a r a t i o n . Then t h e r e 
was the e n t i r e tense s t r u g g l e between the Arabs and the Jews 
a f t e r 1919 o r 1920 when the mandate was f i n a l l y g i v e n t o the 
B r i t i s h . I n 1922 C h u r c h i l l had d i v i d e d o f f T r a n s j o r d a n from 
P a l e s t i n e . That was t o be the Arab s t a t e and P a l e s t i n e was 
t o be the J e w i s h n a t i o n a l home. But they wrote i n t o the 
mandate " w h i l e p r e s e r v i n g the c i v i l and p o l i t i c a l r i g h t s o f 
the Arabs." Then they went through l o t s of t r o u b l e s . The 
B r i t i s h as the mandatory power d u r i n g the 20s and 30s d e c i d e d 
t o s i d e more and more w i t h the A r a b s . The Jews and o t h e r s 
i n v o l v e d c a l l e d i t d i v i d e and r u l e . Keep then a t loggerheads 
and t h a t means you w i l l s t a y t h e r e . Then they i s s u e d the 
White Paper i n 1938 o r "39 which r e s t r i c t e d J e w i s h 
i m m i g r a t i o n . The League of N a t i o n s Mandates Commission s a i d 
t h a t was c o n t r a r y t o the mandate. They had no r i g h t t o do 
t h a t under the mandate. I t was c o n t r a r y t o the t r a d i t i o n a l 
i n t e r p r e t a t i o n t h a t had always been a c c e p t e d and passed by 
m a j o r i t y v o t e . 
JK: So, the League of N a t i o n s d i d a c t u a l l y o b j e c t t o the White 
Papers. 
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E p s t e i n : They d i d not accept i t . Then the war broke out and the 
J e w i s h people of P a l e s t i n e were n a t u r a l l y opposed t o H i t l e r 
and they d e c i d e d t o h e l p out i n any way they c o u l d . The 
Arabs were a m b i v a l e n t . I n f a c t , the Grand M u f t i spent a l o t 
o f time i n Germany d u r i n g the war p u t t i n g out propaganda f o r 
the N a z i s . They f e l t t h a t they had been cheated by the 
B r i t i s h j u s t as the Jews had f e l t . There had been a l o t of 
r o y a l commissions and o t h e r commissions of i n q u i r y . I went 
through a l l o f those t h i n g s i n the paper I d i d and I came t o 
the c o n c l u s i o n t h a t you c o u l d n ' t g i v e i t a l l t o the Arabs, 
which was what they wanted, and you c o u l d n ' t g i v e i t a l l t o 
the Jews because i t was a d i f f i c u l t q u e s t i o n . The Jews were 
a m i n o r i t y i n the p o p u l a t i o n . They had 600,000 and the Arabs 
had 1,200,000 a t t h a t time i n the whole of the a r e a o f 
P a l e s t i n e . So, I came up w i t h the c o n c l u s i o n which was not 
new. I t had been put f o r w a r d by the r o y a l commission a t one 
time. They had a r o y a l commission d u r i n g the v e r y l a t e 
t w e n t i e s o r the e a r l y t h i r t i e s . They had recommended 
p a r t i t i o n , d i v i d i n g i t i n t o an Arab s t a t e and a J e w i s h s t a t e . 
And I came t o the c o n c l u s i o n t h a t t h i s was the o n l y way o u t . 
I f you have two c l a i m s t o the whole of the l a n d and you 
can't g i v e i t t o both, then you can o n l y d i v i d e i t . I t was a 
d i f f i c u l t t a s k t o d i v i d e i t t o make sure t h a t the Jews would 
be a m a j o r i t y i n t h e i r p a r t of the c o u n t r y . I wrote t h a t 
paper and I know t h a t b o t h Sobolev, the head of the 
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department, and Trygve L i e l i k e d the paper. I had a copy of 
my Arab c o l l e a g u e ' s paper, S a l e h Mahmoud, which emphasized 
the p s y c h o l o g i c a l problem. The Arabs had been t h e r e f o r two 
thousand y e a r s and had always been a m a j o r i t y w h i l e the Jews 
had been a m i n o r i t y f o r two thousand y e a r s . Then they 
s t a r t e d coming i n w i t h the N a z i e x p u l s i o n o f Jews from 
Germany. There was a b i g i n f l u x and t h e r e were b i g rows and 
the B r i t i s h White Paper, which t r i e d t o r e s t r i c t i m m i g r a t i o n . 
My c o l l e a g u e s a i d you had t o approach t h i s problem from a 
p s y c h o l o g i c a l v i e w p o i n t , j u s t summarizing i t . A c c o r d i n g t o 
a l l the p s y c h o l o g i c a l i n p u t i t was an Arab r e g i o n o r s t a t e . 
The B r i t i s h d i d a t y p i c a l B r i t i s h a n a l y s i s . He s a i d these 
two people are a t each o t h e r ' s t h r o a t s and we have t o h o l d 
the r i n g t h e r e . We have t o make sure t h a t they don't s t a r t 
b u t c h e r i n g each o t h e r . But b o t h the Arabs and the Jews a t 
t h a t time thought t h a t the B r i t i s h were p l a y i n g the o t h e r ' s 
game and t h a t i t was d i v i d e and r u l e and not t o suppress the 
f i g h t i n g but t o encourage i t . I t i s a v e r y s t r a t e g i c a l l y 
l o c a t e d a r e a r i g h t a t the Suez Canal and a c r o s s r o a d s not 
j u s t t o the M i d d l e E a s t but t o A s i a , A f r i c a , and Europe. 
Trygve L i e and the head of the department l i k e d my paper b e s t 
and then they s e t up t h i s commission t o go t h e r e , the U n i t e d 
N a t i o n s S p e c i a l Committee on P a l e s t i n e (UNSCOP). Both S a l e h 
Mahmoud and I were chosen t o go t h e r e as e x p e r t s , he the Arab 
e x p e r t and I the J e w i s h e x p e r t . A t the l a s t minute, however, 
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I don't know who arr a n g e d i t , but we were b o t h removed. I 
was inf o r m e d by Andrew C o r d i e r , the S e c r e t a r y - G e n e r a l ' s 
a s s i s t a n t a t the time, t h a t they were not g o i n g t o have 
e i t h e r an Arab e x p e r t o r a J e w i s h e x p e r t on the commission 
because t h a t might g i v e the i m p r e s s i o n t h a t t h e r e was some 
b i a s one way o r another. I remember Sobolev was v e r y annoyed 
by t h a t . He s a i d , "What you are d o i n g i s t a k i n g away the 
e x p e r t s who are both UN c i v i l s e r v a n t s sworn t o be i m p a r t i a l 
i n t h e i r a c t i o n s and b e h a v i o r . We had a l r e a d y had our sho t s 
and i t h i t the newspapers a t the time t h a t we had been k i c k e d 
o f f on the grounds t h a t we might be b i a s e d and knew too much. 
We were v e r y annoyed. 
UNSCOP came up w i t h the p l a n of p a r t i t i o n w i t h economic 
u n i o n . That was the o n l y new element o v e r the r o y a l 
commission, which had come up w i t h p a r t i t i o n y e a r s e a r l i e r . 
A n o ther commission had suggested a b i - n a t i o n a l s t a t e . That 
may have been the j o i n t Anglo-American commission a t the end 
of the war i n 1946. The B r i t i s h r e j e c t e d t h a t . They 
r e j e c t e d a l l the r e p o r t s o f a l l the commissions. The 
m a j o r i t y o f the UNSCOP members proposed p a r t i t i o n , the J e w i s h 
s t a t e and the Arab s t a t e w i t h economic u n i o n . They came up 
w i t h a v e r y c l e v e r i d e a i n which you c o u l d have c r o s s o v e r 
p o i n t s , the s t r i p a l o n g the Sea o f G a l i l e e , the v a l l e y of 
J e z r e e l , the c o a s t a l s t r i p . The c o a s t a l s t r i p was a l l J e w i s h 
whereas the Sea o f G a l i l e e , the West Bank, and a l a r g e p a r t 
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o f the Negev were not. They came up w i t h t h i s b r i l l i a n t i d e a 
of h a v i n g c r o s s o v e r p o i n t s so t h a t each o f the t h r e e J e w i s h 
and Arab s e p a r a t e areas c o u l d have c r o s s i n g p o i n t s f o r people 
t o c r o s s t o another a r e a w h i l e s t i l l s t a y i n g w i t h i n t h e i r own 
j u r i s d i c t i o n s . T h e i r r e p o r t came t o the U n i t e d N a t i o n s and 
they s e t up a s p e c i a l committee on the P a l e s t i n i a n q u e s t i o n 
i n the f a l l o f 1947. They had v a r i o u s committees s e t up, a 
committee f o r the J e w i s h s t a t e and a committee f o r the Arab 
s t a t e . The committee f o r the Arab s t a t e d i d n ' t r e a l l y do 
a n y t h i n g . They j u s t opposed the whole t h i n g . The r e a l guts 
of the t h i n g were handled by what they c a l l e d the committee 
on i m p l e m e n t a t i o n . The members on t h a t committee were Mike 
( L e s t e r ) Pearson, the M i n i s t e r of F o r e i g n A f f a i r s o f Canada 
(he l a t e r became Prime M i n i s t e r ) , H e r s c h e l Johnson of the 
U n i t e d S t a t e s , the R u s s i a n , Simeon T s a r a p k i n who l a t e r became 
Ambassador, and Ambassador G a r c i a Granadas of Guatemala. 
These were the p o w e r f u l committee of f o u r . The Americans and 
the R u s s i a n s b o t h f a v o r e d and a c c e p t e d the p a r t i t i o n p l a n . 
I t was j u s t a q u e s t i o n o f w o r k i n g out the b o u n d a r i e s and the 
r u l e s . The commission had recommended t h a t J e r u s a l e m be a 
"corpus separatum," an i n t e r n a t i o n a l c i t y . They had t o d e a l 
w i t h a l l these d i f f i c u l t q u e s t i o n s . T h i s was the guts o f i t , 
how you go about implementing the p l a n . 
JK: D i d you c o n t i n u e t o d i s c u s s these i s s u e s w i t h the committee 
and a d v i s e these people? 
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E p s t e i n : The head of the p o l i t i c a l department was A l f o n s o G a r c i a 
Robles, who i n 1982 won the Nobel Peace P r i z e f o r h i s work on 
disarmament, and I was the J e w i s h e x p e r t whose paper had been 
ta k e n as the b a s i s f o r the p a r t i t i o n paper, which had been 
ta k e n as the p a r t i t i o n approach. G a r c i a Robles was the 
s e c r e t a r y o f UNSCOP and R a l p h Bunche was t h e r e as one of the 
s e n i o r a d v i s o r s because he was a d i r e c t o r i n the T r u s t e e s h i p 
Department. They took c a r e o f the mandated t e r r i t o r i e s . 
A l t h o u g h G a r c i a Robles was the p r i n c i p a l s e c r e t a r y , he was 
the head of the P o l i t i c a l D i v i s i o n and I was the a c t i n g c h i e f 
o f the M i d d l e E a s t s e c t i o n . I was the a u t h o r of the 
p a r t i t i o n p l a n t h a t was a c c e p t e d by the S e c r e t a r y - G e n e r a l and 
i t was o b v i o u s l y c i r c u l a t e d t o the members of UNSCOP. There 
were no summary r e c o r d s . So, I'm the o n l y p e r s o n a l i v e t h a t 
has a r e c o r d o f what went on t h e r e . I j u s t kept n o t e s . I f 
they needed f a c t u a l i n f o r m a t i o n I c o u l d a d v i s e them. But 
they a l l had t h e i r own a d v i s o r s . 
You had the b i g two, the US and the S o v i e t Union, which 
f a v o r e d i t , Canada who s u p p o r t e d i t s t r o n g l y , and G a r c i a 
Granadas of Guatemala. He r e p r e s e n t e d the L a t i n Americans. 
I n those days we had 21 L a t i n American c o u n t r i e s out of the 
6 0 UN members. 
JK: The J e w i s h Agency was here i n New York. 
E p s t e i n : The J e w i s h Agency had been c r e a t e d by the mandate and 
they were the spokesmen f o r the J e w i s h case f o r the ad hoc 
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committee on the J e w i s h q u e s t i o n . 
JK: What was the J e w i s h Agency's view o f p a r t i t i o n ? 
E p s t e i n : They a c c e p t e d i t c o m p l e t e l y , no q u e s t i o n about t h a t . 
They took an a c t i v e r o l e i n a d j u s t i n g the b o u n d a r i e s t h a t had 
been recommended by UNSCOP. That was one o f j o b s t h a t had t o 
be done, t h a t o f a d j u s t i n g and f i n a l i z i n g the b o u n d a r i e s . 
That was the main problem t o be d e a l t w i t h and you had t o 
c r e a t e a s t a t u t e f o r J e r u s a l e m as an i n t e r n a t i o n a l c i t y . And 
you had t o c r e a t e the p r o v i s i o n s f o r the economic u n i o n . The 
Arabs r e f u s e d t o co o p e r a t e . H e r b e r t Evans o f A u s t r a l i a who 
was P r e s i d e n t o f the Ge n e r a l Assembly t r i e d t o c a r r y on 
d i s c u s s i o n s w i t h the Arabs and got nowhere. The work was 
done i n a subcommittee on how t o s o l v e these d i f f i c u l t 
problems, f o r example, where would the a i r p o r t be. Under the 
p l a n put f o r w a r d by UNSCOP the a i r p o r t had been j u s t i n s i d e 
the Arab s t a t e . But i t was used m a i n l y by the Jews and by 
the B r i t i s h . I remember a t one meeting T s a r a p k i n o f the 
S o v i e t Union i n s i s t e d t h a t i t was used by the Jews and the 
B r i t i s h and o t h e r o u t s i d e r s and not by the Arabs, so i t 
s h o u l d go i n the J e w i s h s t a t e and the boundary s h o u l d be 
moved o v e r j u s t a l i t t l e b i t . 
Then t h e r e was the whole q u e s t i o n of J a f f a . That was an Arab 
c i t y i n the J e w i s h s t a t e . That was s e t t l e d a u t o m a t i c a l l y 
l a t e r on because most of the Arabs f l e d from P a l e s t i n e . 
T h e i r own l e a d e r s t o l d them t o f l e e . They s a i d , "We'll come 
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back and y o u ' l l take o v e r the whole c o u n t r y . " The Arabs 
charge t h a t they were d r i v e n out by the Jews, but I know 
s p e c i f i c i n s t a n c e s , s t o r i e s where the Jews and Arabs, i n 
H a i f a p a r t i c u l a r l y , had good r e l a t i o n s . The Jews went around 
i n t r u c k s w i t h l o u d s p e a k e r s s a y i n g , "Don't l e a v e , y o u ' l l be 
s a f e . W e ' l l work t o g e t h e r . " But the Arab r a d i o s a i d t o get 
out and f l e e . So, they f l e d . There had been a l o t o f 
f i g h t i n g between the two groups. A number of n a s t y i n c i d e n t s 
took p l a c e . Jews were massacred i n one whole v i l l a g e , K f a r 
E t z i o n . Arabs were massacred i n r e t a l i a t i o n by the Jews, and 
a l l k i n d s o f t h i n g s . I t wasn't an easy time. 
JK: J u s t t o back up a l i t t l e , the B r i t i s h had r e f e r r e d the m a t t e r 
t o the UN, i n d i c a t i n g t h a t they wanted t o p u l l out. 
E p s t e i n : They d i d n ' t want t o p u l l o u t . They were a s k i n g the UN 
f o r a d v i c e on which was the b e s t way t o proceed. They were 
hoping t h a t they would be asked t o s t a y on. 
JK: They d i d want t o s t a y on? My i m p r e s s i o n had been t h a t they 
wanted t o get out. 
E p s t e i n : That was the i m p r e s s i o n they gave. A f t e r the r e p o r t of 
UNSCOP was s u b m i t t e d c a l l i n g f o r the s e p a r a t e s t a t e s , the 
B r i t i s h s a i d , "We w i l l have n o t h i n g t o do w i t h i t . We w i l l 
l e a v e on May 14th and l e t them take o v e r . They l e f t under 
such c i r c u m s t a n c e s t h a t they gave the m i l i t a r y advantage t o 
the Arabs. They p u l l e d out of the J e w i s h areas f i r s t and the 
Arab areas l a s t . That gave the Arabs the advantage i n the 
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f i g h t i n g . The J o r d a n i a n s and the Arab l e g i o n were o r g a n i z e d 
and o p e r a t i n g under the B r i t i s h i n the West Bank and were, i n 
e f f e c t , p e r m i t t e d t o take o v e r the West Bank. I t was l i k e 
l e a v i n g the keys i n the door. But t h a t comes a l i t t l e b i t 
l a t e r . 
JK: The commission f a v o r e d p a r t i t i o n . Was t h a t unanimous? 
E p s t e i n : There were e l e v e n members i n UNSCOP. E i g h t f a v o r e d 
p a r t i t i o n and t h e r e was a m i n o r i t y r e p o r t . That i s a l l i n 
the documents. I have a l l the documents at home, a c t u a l l y . 
I would have t o r e f e r t o them. The m a j o r i t y p l a n was e i g h t 
out o f e l e v e n . The m i n o r i t y p l a n was I n d i a , Y u g o s l a v i a , and 
I r a n . The m a j o r i t y p l a n was Sweden Canada, Uruguay, 
Guatemala, and some o t h e r c o u n t r i e s . I ' l l never f o r g e t two 
c o n v e r s a t i o n s t h a t I heard. When i t came t o v o t e on the 
p a r t i t i o n p l a n o f the economic u n i o n , the French Ambassador, 
P a r o d i , wasn't 100% sure what was the b e s t t h i n g t o do. 
P a r o d i asked H e n r i V i g i e r who s a i d , " O b v i o u s l y we s h o u l d 
support the p a r t i t i o n p l a n o r i t w i l l c o n t i n u e i n chaos." 
Then I ' l l never f o r g e t H e r s c h e l Johnson, American Ambassador, 
s a y i n g t o Mike Pearson a t one of our meetings, " H e l l , we 
s h o u l d t e l l the B r i t i s h they b e t t e r damn w e l l s t a y t h e r e 
u n t i l the whole m a t t e r i s s e t t l e d . They've got the mandate." 
But they were g i v i n g up the mandate which they d e c i d e d t o do 
when the UNSCOP r e p o r t came out. They were g i v i n g up the 
mandate and they were p u l l i n g out of P a l e s t i n e . H e r s c h e l 
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Johnson s a i d , "How can they do t h a t ? That i s abandonment of 
t h e i r r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s . " I ' l l never f o r g e t Mike Pearson 
s a y i n g , "How can we p r e v e n t a n a t i o n from a s s i g n i n g 
b a n k r u p t c y ? " I n o t h e r words, how can you f o r c e a n a t i o n t o 
do something i t cannot do? 
JK: So, the commission r e p o r t e d t o the G e n e r a l Assembly. 
E p s t e i n : They d r a f t e d the dates of e v e r y t h i n g . On the 14th of 
May the p l a n was t o go i n t o e f f e c t . I n the meantime they s e t 
up a P a l e s t i n e Commission of f i v e members w i t h a Czech as 
chairman. There was a P h i l i p p i n e , a Dane, a Czech, and 
someone from L a t i n America. Bunche was s e l e c t e d as i t s 
s e c r e t a r y and I was s e l e c t e d as the s e n i o r o f f i c e r from the 
P o l i t i c a l Department. T h e i r j o b was t o implement i t as soon 
as the R e s o l u t i o n was adopted. And, boy, t h a t was a tough 
j o b , a d o p t i n g the p a r t i t i o n p l a n . 
JK: T h i s was the G e n e r a l Assembly R e s o l u t i o n . 
E p s t e i n : Yes, a d o p t i n g the p l a n of p a r t i t i o n w i t h economic 
u n i o n . A l l of the Arabs were a g a i n s t i t . N e a r l y a l l of the 
Western c o u n t r i e s p l u s the whole S o v i e t b l o c k were f o r i t . 
T h i s was one of the few times t h a t you found the Americans 
and the S o v i e t s t o g e t h e r on a p o l i t i c a l q u e s t i o n . I t was a 
m a t t e r f o r n o t i c e t h a t the superpowers were j o i n i n g t o g e t h e r 
here and the B r i t i s h g e t t i n g k i c k e d o u t . There was one of 
the Arabs d u r i n g the S p e c i a l S e s s i o n , H u s s i n i , a 
r e p r e s e n t a t i v e o f the Arab H i g h e r Committee, who gave 
12 
evidence t o the S e s s i o n j u s t as the J e w i s h Agency d i d . They 
were not governments but they were the r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s o f the 
pe o p l e . The J e w i s h Agency had s p e c i a l s t a t u s i n the mandate 
t o r e p r e s e n t not j u s t the Jews i n P a l e s t i n e but the Jews of 
the w o r l d . H u s s i n i s a i d , "We are l o s t , we are l o s t , " when 
Gromyko came out w i t h a speech f a v o r i n g p a r t i t i o n . He a l s o 
s a i d , "This w i l l be n o t h i n g but a l i n e of f i r e and death. " 
The Arabs t r i e d e v e r y t h i n g t o b l o c k t h i s R e s o l u t i o n . Kamil 
Shamun, who was j u s t k i l l e d i n Lebanon, came up a t the end 
when i t came t o a v o t e and he moved t h a t i t be postponed and 
t h a t t h e r e be o t h e r e f f o r t s t o r e s o l v e the problem, t h a t 
t h e r e be c o n t i n u i n g e f f o r t s by the Arabs, B r i t i s h , and the 
Jews t o t r y t o s o l v e i t . I remember the J e w i s h Agency people 
were v e r y w o r r i e d because t h i s would have meant a 
postponement o f what they had been w a i t i n g f o r 2000 y e a r s . 
T h i s would be v e r y dangerous. The P r e s i d e n t o f the G e n e r a l 
Assembly and the S p e c i a l S e s s i o n was Oswaldo Aranha of 
B r a z i l . He s a i d , "This i s not a R e s o l u t i o n f o r postponement 
which means t h i s would have p r i o r i t y , i t i s a s u b s t a n t i v e 
R e s o l u t i o n . The o t h e r c a l l s f o r p o s t p o n i n g i t and i t c a l l s 
f o r a d d i t i o n a l c o n s u l t a t i o n s and e f f o r t s a t compromise. T h i s 
i s a s u b s t a n t i v e R e s o l u t i o n . So, we don't v o t e on the o t h e r 
one f i r s t . " There may have been some c o u n t r i e s t h a t would 
have l i k e d t o postpone the whole q u e s t i o n . 
JK: T h i s was the S p e c i a l S e s s i o n i n the f a l l of 1947. 
13 
E p s t e i n : Yes. I n the ad hoc committee on the P a l e s t i n i a n 
q u e s t i o n b o t h Chaim Weizmann and Ben G u r i o n appeared. The 
o n l y time Ben G u r i o n showed up here. I t h i n k i t was the o n l y 
time t h a t Weizmann showed up. Weizmann t a l k e d about t h a t 
they had t o have t h e i r J e w i s h s t a t e . I t was 2000 y e a r s of 
h i s t o r y . They always c a r r y a knapsack on t h e i r back and 
t h e r e always seems t o be a n t i - S e m i t i s m i n the knapsack as 
they go from one p l a c e t o another, the wandering Jews. I t 
was time t o end t h a t and g i v e them t h e i r p l a c e . Ben G u r i o n 
came out w i t h a v e r y s h o r t but a v e r y p o w e r f u l speech. He 
s a i d , "The o n l y way we can have peace i n t h a t a r e a o f the 
w o r l d i s t o have an Arab s t a t e and a J e w i s h s t a t e and an 
A r a b / J e w i s h a l l i a n c e . " He pounded the t a b l e when he s a i d 
t h a t . I was so impressed by t h a t and he was r i g h t . That i s 
what l e d t o the i d e a of the Arab s t a t e , the J e w i s h s t a t e , and 
the economic u n i o n . 
The v o t e i n the G e n e r a l Assembly was something l i k e 33 t o 13 
w i t h 10 a b s t e n t i o n s . I t was an overwhelming m a j o r i t y . The 
Arabs a l l s t o o d up and s a i d t h a t they would oppose i t and 
they would not c o o p e r a t e . I t was an h i s t o r i c v o t e . The b e s t 
p l a c e I've seen i t w r i t t e n up w i t h emotion was i n Leon U r i s ' s 
Exodus. He gave the r e a c t i o n from people l i s t e n i n g i n t o the 
v o t i n g o ver the r a d i o . They danced i n the s t r e e t s i n 
J e r u s a l e m and T e l A v i v . Then the P a l e s t i n e Commission had t o 
go t o work. 
14 
JK: The f i g h t i n g i n t e n s i f i e d a f t e r t h a t . 
E p s t e i n : The f i g h t i n g got much worse than i t had been b e f o r e . 
I t was almost p e r p e t u a l g u e r r i l l a w a r f a r e . The P a l e s t i n e 
Commission s a i d t h a t t h e r e was no way t h a t they c o u l d go and 
implement t h i s p l a n . T h e i r t a s k was t o implement the p l a n of 
p a r t i t i o n and economic u n i o n . The B r i t i s h wouldn't guarantee 
t h e i r s a f e t y . I remember Golda M e i r asked me, "What about 
s e t t i n g up a U n i t e d N a t i o n s f o r c e t o p o l i c e the a r e a ? " I 
t o l d h e r the d i f f i c u l t i e s i n s e t t i n g up such a f o r c e were 
such t h a t she had b e t t e r f o r g e t i t . "There was no p o i n t i n 
r e l y i n g on a U n i t e d N a t i o n s f o r c e t o implement your p l a n . I f 
the p l a n i s t o be implemented a t a l l , you w i l l have t o 
implement i t on your own. You cannot expect the UN t o do 
i t . " They came b e f o r e the P a l e s t i n e Commission. I was a 
s e n i o r o f f i c e r t h e r e . Bunche was the p r i n c i p a l s e c r e t a r y . 
We met day a f t e r day a f t e r day and f i n a l l y we s u b m i t t e d a 
r e p o r t s a y i n g t h a t t h e r e was no way they c o u l d implement t h i s 
t h i n g because t h e r e was a v i r t u a l war g o i n g on i n P a l e s t i n e . 
JK: The B r i t i s h were not i n t e r e s t e d a t a l l i n implementing i t ? 
E p s t e i n : On the c o n t r a r y , they s a i d they would not do a n y t h i n g 
t o implement the p l a n . " A l l we w i l l do i s withdraw our 
f o r c e s and our government on May 14th, which was the day 
s e l e c t e d i n the i m p l e m e n t a t i o n R e s o l u t i o n . A l l we w i l l do i s 
l e a v e the key i n the l o c k . We are not g o i n g t o t r a n s f e r 
a n y t h i n g t o e i t h e r Arabs o r Jews. We w i l l j u s t l e a v e 
15 
e v e r y t h i n g and l e t them do i t . " I remember s a y i n g t o Golda 
M e i r , "Look, i f you're g o i n g t o do a n y t h i n g here, you've got 
t o do i t y o u r s e l f . There w i l l be no h e l p from the B r i t i s h . " 
Many people s a i d the B r i t i s h were t r y i n g t o sabotage the 
p l a n . There would be no h e l p from the U n i t e d N a t i o n s because 
we d i d n ' t have the machinery f o r d o i n g i t . Then they 
s u b m i t t e d the whole t h i n g t o the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l . 
I ' l l never f o r g e t the American Ambassador, Warren A u s t i n , a t 
a meeting of the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l . He was t a l k i n g about the 
t e r r i b l e g u e r r i l l a f i g h t i n g t h a t was g o i n g on. Jews and 
Arabs were k i l l i n g each o t h e r . He pounded the t a b l e s a y i n g , 
" I f o n l y the Jews and Arabs would have a l i t t l e more 
C h r i s t i a n s p i r i t , b e h a v i o r and i d e a s . " That was w r i t t e n 
r i g h t i n t o the r e c o r d . 
JK: N e i t h e r b e i n g C h r i s t i a n , t h a t was h a r d l y p o s s i b l e . 
E p s t e i n : R i g h t , anyway at the end he came up c a l l i n g f o r 
r e s t o r a t i o n of the mandate. I ' l l never f o r g e t Trygve L i e 
s a y i n g t o me, " E p s t e i n , t o n i g h t the f i r s t b o r n c h i l d o f the 
U n i t e d N a t i o n s d i e d . " That was when the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l 
s a i d t h e r e was n o t h i n g we c o u l d do t o e n f o r c e the P a r t i t i o n 
P l a n . Then somebody came up w i t h the i d e a of a p p o i n t i n g a 
m e d i a t o r . And they f i n a l l y agreed on B e r n a d o t t e . He was t o 
recommend the b e s t way of p r o c e e d i n g . T h i s was a f t e r May the 
14th. What happened i s t h a t on May the 14th -- and t h i s was 
a d r a m a t i c o c c a s i o n -- the Assembly was i n s e s s i o n a t t h a t 
16 
time. 
JK: There was a Second S p e c i a l S e s s i o n between A p r i l and May, 
1948. 
E p s t e i n : That's i t . They had c a l l e d f o r a t r u c e . They s e t up 
the Truce S u p e r v i s i o n O r g a n i z a t i o n s h o r t l y f o l l o w i n g t h a t . 
B e f o r e May 14, they were d e b a t i n g t h i s t h i n g and the Arabs 
were making l o n g speeches and the p r o - I s r a e l i s were making 
l o n g speeches. There was a f e l l o w by the name of Sayre, an 
American Ambassador a t the time. A l l o f a sudden t h e r e was a 
hush t h a t came ov e r the h a l l and people were g o i n g o u t s i d e . 
There was a tremendous hubbub o u t s i d e . F i n a l l y , an Arab 
spokesman went up ( i t may have been Fawzi of Egypt) and 
spoke, "We hear t h a t t h e r e has been news t h a t has come out 
t h a t the U n i t e d S t a t e s government a t s i x pm (or whatever 
time) t o n i g h t r e c o g n i z e d the p r o v i s i o n a l government o f 
I s r a e l . " The I s r a e l i s had c r e a t e d a p r o v i s i o n a l government 
on the day b e f o r e the 14th because the 14th was a Saturday 
and was a J e w i s h h o l i d a y . So, the day b e f o r e they d e c l a r e d 
the e s t a b l i s h m e n t of the J e w i s h s t a t e , implementing the 
P a r t i t i o n P l a n , A pressman came t o me w i t h a w i r e s e r v i c e 
statement, " T e l A v i v , S t a t e of I s r a e l : d e c l a r a t i o n o f the 
e s t a b l i s h m e n t of the J e w i s h S t a t e . " And a few minutes l a t e r 
everybody went out of the h a l l . Then Fawzi went t o the 
podium s a y i n g , "We want to get government i n f o r m a t i o n . We 
hear from the p r e s s t h a t not o n l y has t h e r e been the 
17 
e s t a b l i s h m e n t o f the J e w i s h S t a t e , but t h a t the American 
government has o f f i c i a l l y r e c o g n i z e d the p r o v i s i o n a l 
government o f I s r a e l . 
JK: How d i d the e s t a b l i s h m e n t of the J e w i s h S t a t e and the US 
r e c o g n i t i o n o f t h a t s t a t u s e f f e c t t h i n g s a t the U n i t e d 
N a t i o n s ? 
E p s t e i n : I have t o go back t o another p o i n t . There were l e g a l 
q u e s t i o n s i n v o l v e d . How can the Ge n e r a l Assembly recommend 
t h a t t h e r e s h o u l d be a J e w i s h s t a t e and an Arab s t a t e ? By 
what a u t h o r i t y ? You have t o have some a u t h o r i t y t o do t h a t . 
The l e g a l e x p e r t s s a i d the Assembly can't do t h a t . I 
remember the I s r a e l i s a s k i n g about t h a t and I t o l d them t o 
rea d A r t i c l e 14 o f the C h a r t e r which s a i d t h a t t hey c o u l d 
recommend a n y t h i n g on any q u e s t i o n s o f peace and s e c u r i t y . 
They can make recommendations, not d e c i s i o n s l i k e the 
S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l . The R u s s i a n s s a i d when t h a t q u e s t i o n was 
put t o them, "This has n o t h i n g t o do w i t h the C h a r t e r . T h i s 
i s a c o n t i n u a t i o n and d i s p o s a l of the League of N a t i o n s 
mandate. The U n i t e d N a t i o n s i s the s u c c e s s o r t o the League 
of N a t i o n s and, t h e r e f o r e , we have the same j u r i s d i c t i o n t o 
d e a l w i t h t h e i r mandate as the League of N a t i o n s had." So, 
t h a t l e g a l argument was dropped. A l s o , under i n t e r n a t i o n a l 
law t h e r e was a recommendation made t h a t t h e r e be a J e w i s h 
s t a t e and t h a t the Jews of P a l e s t i n e s a i d , "We accept t h a t 
recommendation and we are g o i n g t o implement i t . " That made 
18 
i t s t r i c t l y l e g a l . I t was im m e d i a t e l y r e c o g n i z e d w i t h i n 
minutes by the U n i t e d S t a t e s and the f o l l o w i n g day by the 
S o v i e t Union. The B r i t i s h were l i v i d . They thought t h i s was 
much too h a s t y . B e v i n , the B r i t i s h F o r e i g n S e c r e t a r y , was 
r e a l l y u p s e t . Many I s r a e l i s and B r i t i s h t o l d me t h a t he was 
a n t i - S e m i t i c . I have had l o t s of c o n f i r m a t i o n of t h a t . 
That was a d r a m a t i c moment. One Arab a f t e r a n o ther went t o 
the podium. Fawzi s a i d he had been m i s l e d . I t was a f a k e . 
"The Americans had t o l d us they wanted t o b r i n g about a 
p e a c e f u l s o l u t i o n . They m i s l e d us. I t i s a l l f a k e r y . " 
Z a f u l a Khan o f P a k i s t a n was a s t r o n g s u p p o r t e r o f the Arabs 
and more i n t e l l i g e n t i n h i s h i s t o r i c a l arguments than many 
o t h e r s who were m o t i v a t e d p r i m a r i l y by emotions and 
p s y c h o l o g i c a l r e a c t i o n s . He was t r y i n g t o be p o l i t i c a l , 
h i s t o r i c a l , and l e g a l . He s t o o d up and s a i d , " W e l l , so be 
i t , but t h e r e a re g o i n g t o be a l o t of problems and 
t r o u b l e s . " T h i s i s what I remember. I'm sp e a k i n g e v e r y t h i n g 
as I r e c a l l i t . 
I'm not sure when i t was t h a t they s e t up the Truce 
S u p e r v i s i o n O r g a n i z a t i o n . The S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l c a l l e d f o r a 
t r u c e . They a p p o i n t e d a c h i e f of s t a f f o f the o r g a n i z a t i o n . 
The f i r s t one was Ge n e r a l Burns o f Canada. He went out 
t h e r e . 
JK: He i s no l o n g e r l i v i n g . I s t h a t c o r r e c t ? 
E p s t e i n : Yes, he's dead. But he wrote a book about i t . I 
19 
remember the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l a p p o i n t i n g a m e d i a t o r and 
c a l l i n g f o r a s i x weeks t r u c e . They s e t up the Truce 
S u p e r v i s i o n O r g a n i z a t i o n t o observe the t r u c e d u r i n g t h a t s i x 
week p e r i o d . He went out t h e r e and he was g i v e n s t a f f and 
e v e r y t h i n g . B e r n a d o t t e was the me d i a t o r . S a l e h Mahmoud and 
I had been k i c k e d o f f UNSCOP. But when B e r n a d o t t e made h i s 
he a d q u a r t e r s a t Rhodes we a l l got t e l e g r a m s , Mahmoud, 
E p s t e i n , V i g i e r , "Come to Rhodes t o work on the P a r t i t i o n 
P l a n . " I remember a s k i n g , "How come they want us now when 
they k i c k e d us o f f then?" They s a i d v e r y p l a i n l y t h a t our 
j o b now was t o implement the P a r t i t i o n P l a n and the m e d i a t i o n 
e f f o r t and the t r u c e . Now they needed our e x p e r t i s e t o 
implement b o t h Assembly and S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l r e s o l u t i o n s . 
JK: So, you went t o Rhodes d u r i n g the time t h a t B e r n a d o t t e was 
t h e r e ? 
E p s t e i n : Yes, I was the s e n i o r J e w i s h UN o f f i c e r . And Mahmoud 
was s t a t i o n e d i n C a i r o as a l i a i s o n because he was an 
E g y p t i a n . V i g i e r was i n I s r a e l . He was the s e n i o r p o l i t i c a l 
o f f i c e r i n J e r u s a l e m and T e l A v i v . John Reidman was an 
economist. He became an im p o r t a n t a d v i s o r t o R a l p h Bunche on 
the m e d i a t o r s t a f f . I ' l l never f o r g e t the n i g h t t h a t 
B e r n a d o t t e was a s s a s s i n a t e d . 
JK: E x p l a i n what happened. 
E p s t e i n : I was i n Rhodes w i t h my w i f e . We heard the news t h a t 
B e r n a d o t t e was a s s a s s i n a t e d o u t s i d e o f T e l A v i v . He was i n 
20 
h i s c a r . There was G e n e r a l S a r o u l , a Frenchman, and somebody 
e l s e i n the c a r . Bunche was supposed t o go w i t h him on t h a t 
t r i p , but he d i d n ' t . He had some o t h e r f u n c t i o n . We had 
l i t t l e b ranch o f f i c e s i n H a i f a , T e l A v i v , and Je r u s a l e m . I n 
Je r u s a l e m we had the he a d q u a r t e r s f o r the Truce S u p e r v i s i o n 
O r g a n i z a t i o n i n the o l d government house which i s s t i l l t h e r e 
and the Truce S u p e r v i s i o n heads are s t i l l t h e r e , t o o . One of 
my j o b s a s s i g n e d by Trygve L i e and Sobolev was t o be the 
J e w i s h e x p e r t and l i a i s e w i t h the Jews, f i n d out t h e i r 
t h i n k i n g , e x p l a i n our t h i n k i n g t o them, e t c . One o f the 
n i c e s t t h i n g s t h a t has ev e r happened t o me i n my l i f e was on 
May 14th, 1949, a y e a r l a t e r , when I got a l e t t e r from Chaim 
Weizmann, P r e s i d e n t of the J e w i s h S t a t e , e x p r e s s i n g h i s 
thanks t o me f o r a l l the h e l p I had been t o them d u r i n g the 
days when the q u e s t i o n was b e i n g c o n s i d e r e d a t the U n i t e d 
N a t i o n s . I thought i t was a v e r y n i c e g e s t u r e . I showed i t 
t o people around the UN. 
JK: Was Count B e r n a d o t t e c o n s i d e r e d t o be n e u t r a l o r i m p a r t i a l ? 
E p s t e i n : He was on the whole n e u t r a l and i m p a r t i a l . (Oh, I've 
got t o t e l l you an o t h e r s t o r y , a r e a l c u t e s t o r y . I mustn't 
f o r g e t t h a t one.) He had come up w i t h the i d e a i n one o f h i s 
e a r l i e r p r o p o s a l s t h a t J e r u s a l e m s h o u l d b e l o n g t o Jordan , the 
Arab s t a t e . 
JK: The e n t i r e c i t y ? 
E p s t e i n : Yes, the e n t i r e c i t y , an i n t e r n a t i o n a l c i t y , would 
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b e l o n g t o Jo r d a n , a t l e a s t a l l o f the h o l y p l a c e s , the o l d 
c i t y not the new c i t y . The o l d c i t y was where a l l the 
h i s t o r i c a l p l a c e s were. I'd have t o l o o k t h i s up. Maybe he 
wanted the whole corpus separatum t o b e l o n g t o J o r d a n o r 
maybe i t was o n l y the h o l y p l a c e s . That i d e a he came up w i t h 
sometime i n June. Then they thought he was b e i n g v e r y a n t i -
r e s o l u t i o n , a n t i - J e w i s h . I wrote a memo when I got t h e r e 
s a y i n g t h a t t h i s was the worst c o n c e i v a b l e t h i n g t h a t c o u l d 
happen because the Jews wanted t o implement the P a r t i t i o n 
P l a n as a whole i n c l u d i n g the p r o v i s i o n s on Je r u s a l e m . For 
him t o dep a r t from t h a t was a b i g m i s t a k e . That made an 
i m p r e s s i o n on him because when he came out w i t h the f i n a l 
B e r n a d o t t e r e p o r t he went back t o the i d e a o f 
i n t e r n a t i o n a l i z a t i o n . 
JK: But t h i s was a p u b l i c statement t h a t he had made? 
E p s t e i n : Oh yes, they were p r o p o s a l s t o the Jews and the Arabs 
how he v i s u a l i z e d the s o l u t i o n . He wanted t o c u t down the 
J e w i s h t e r r i t o r y a l i t t l e b i t and i n c r e a s e the Arab t e r r i t o r y 
a l i t t l e b i t and g i v e them the o l d c i t y because h i s t h i n k i n g , 
as I had i t e x p l a i n e d t o me by Bunche and by h i m s e l f , was, 
"Look, the J e w i s h support we have f o r the P a r t i t i o n P l a n . We 
have t o a t t r a c t Arab sup p o r t . So, we have t o g i v e them 
something because they are the ones who are p u t t i n g up the 
f i g h t a g a i n s t the P a r t i t i o n P l a n . " The P a l e s t i n e Commission 
i n t h e i r f i n a l r e p o r t t o the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l s a i d t h a t the 
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Jews had ac c e p t e d the P a r t i t i o n P l a n and wanted i t 
implemented, whereas, the Arabs o f P a l e s t i n e and the Arab 
governments were t r y i n g t o overthrow i t by f o r c e . T h e r e f o r e , 
t h e r e was no way t h a t they c o u l d go and implement the p l a n . 
L e t me get back t o what I was s a y i n g about B e r n d o t t e ' s 
a s s a s s i n a t i o n . I and my w i f e were t h e r e . V i g i e r , a French 
Roman C a t h o l i c a l t h o u g h not a l l t h a t r e l i g i o u s , and h i s w i f e 
were a l s o t h e r e . One o f us c o n f i r m e d t h a t he had been 
a s s a s s i n a t e d and two o t h e r s w i t h him. We would a l l have a 
d r i n k b e f o r e g o i n g i n t o d i n n e r . When we walked i n t o d i n n e r 
t h e r e were many a n t i - S e m i t i c remarks, "Those God damned 
Jews," e t c . I t was enough t o c u r l your h a i r . We u s u a l l y 
went o v e r and j o i n e d everybody, but they were so busy damning 
not j u s t the a s s a s s i n s but a l l Jews and I s r a e l i s and anybody 
i n the w o r l d who had any J e w i s h c o n n e c t i o n . So, we d e c i d e d 
t o go o v e r t o our own l i t t l e t a b l e and have a d r i n k . V i g i e r 
and h i s w i f e came i n t o the room r i g h t a f t e r us and they saw 
what was g o i n g on and so, they asked i f they c o u l d come and 
j o i n us. I thought t h a t was a n i c e g e s t u r e . He was an o l d e r 
p e r s o n . He had been i n the League of N a t i o n s . He was the 
o l d e s t p e r s o n around and a man o f c o n s i d e r a b l e s t a t u r e and 
p r e s t i g e . 
JK: I t was a d i f f i c u l t time f o r you. 
E p s t e i n : I c o u l d n ' t b e l i e v e t h a t he had been a s s a s s i n a t e d f o r a 
w h i l e . They a t t r i b u t e d i t t o the S t e r n gang. I n I s r a e l 
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t h e r e was the J e w i s h Agency and t h e i r m i l i t a r y was c a l l e d the 
Hagannah. They had the r e v i s i o n i s t s which became the L i k u d . 
T h e i r m i l i t a r y arm was the I r g u n . The S t e r n gang d i d not 
have any s o l i d p o l i t i c a l group. They were j u s t a gang. That 
was why they c a l l e d them the S t e r n "gang." They a t t r i b u t e d 
the a s s a s s i n a t i o n t o them. They c a r r i e d on many 
i n v e s t i g a t i o n s , but they never r e a l l y found out who d i d i t . 
The Swedes were q u i t e t e s t y f o r a l o n g time u n t i l t h ey 
c a r r i e d out a deep and thorough i n v e s t i g a t i o n , not j u s t a 
s u p e r f i c i a l one. 
JK: What e f f e c t d i d the a s s a s s i n a t i o n have on the n e g o t i a t i o n s ? 
E p s t e i n : I don't t h i n k i t had much e f f e c t a t a l l . Bunche was 
im m e d i a t e l y a p p o i n t e d a c t i n g m e d i a t o r . B e r n a d o t t e had 
approved the r e p o r t b e f o r e he had l e f t on h i s l a s t t r i p t o 
I s r a e l . I n the r e p o r t they were g o i n g t o reduce the amount 
of t e r r i t o r y the I s r a e l i s had i n the Negev. B e r n a d o t t e was 
a s s a s s i n a t e d i n l a t e September. Bunche had t a k e n o v e r as 
a c t i n g m e d i a t o r . I got a l o n g v e r y w e l l w i t h b o t h Bunche and 
B e r n a d o t t e . B e r n a d o t t e wanted an e x t e n s i o n o f the s i x weeks 
t r u c e and he was g o i n g t o the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l t o ask f o r i t . 
I was a l o n g w i t h him when he went t o the I s r a e l i s and they 
s a i d yes t h a t they agreed t o the e x t e n s i o n . They would abide 
by the t r u c e . I remember u r g i n g B e r n a d o t t e t o get t h a t down 
i n w r i t i n g b e f o r e g o i n g t o the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l . A f t e r I 
came, the f i r s t j o b I had t o do was t o w r i t e a r e p o r t on the 
24 
i n c i d e n t s i n which the Truce S u p e r v i s i o n O r g a n i z a t i o n and 
Be r n a d o t t e had had t o i n t e r v e n e and i n v e s t i g a t e . I wrote a 
l o n g r e p o r t . I spent days and weeks s i f t i n g t h r o ugh tons of 
r e p o r t s sent i n by the t r u c e p e o p l e , by the I s r a e l i s , by the 
Arabs . These were a l l e g e d breaches o f the t r u c e . I had t o 
w r i t e a l o n g r e p o r t about i t and I d i d . I s a i d t h a t w h i l e 
t h e r e were a l o t o f i n c i d e n t s and charges and c l a i m s , they 
had a l l been i n v e s t i g a t e d and on the whole the t r u c e had h e l d 
up and was a s u c c e s s . That was the f i n a l c o n c l u s i o n . 
I ' l l never f o r g e t . A f t e r he re a d i t , he came up t o me and 
shook my hand and s a i d i t was a won d e r f u l r e p o r t , v e r y 
a c c u r a t e . He went t o the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l and t h a t was the 
f i r s t time they t h r e a t e n e d t o use Chapter V I I o f the C h a r t e r . 
They approved the t r u c e e x t e n s i o n and s a i d t h a t i f e i t h e r 
s i d e r e f u s e d the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l would take a c t i o n under 
Chapter V I I o f the C h a r t e r . So, they extended the t r u c e f o r 
a p e r i o d of time. 
Then he came back and we were working on h i s r e p o r t . We had 
l e n g t h y d i s c u s s i o n s . I argued w i t h him and o t h e r s and some 
of my p o i n t s they agreed w i t h and o t h e r s they d i d not agree 
w i t h . Then he came up w i t h the r e p o r t t h a t the Negev would 
be d i v i d e d and t h a t the Jews would be g i v e n the areas they 
had c a p t u r e d i n the f i g h t i n g , Lod and Ramle which i s e a s t of 
T e l A v i v , and the p a r t s they had c a p t u r e d i n G a l i l e e . Then 
they had a l l of G a l i l e e , a l l o f the C o a s t a l p l a i n down t o 
25 
Egypt. But he wanted t o g i v e the e a s t e r n p a r t of the Negev 
t o the Arab s t a t e . 
One day Bunche had me busy w r i t i n g something up and t h a t 
n i g h t my w i f e s a i d t o me, "Who are these people who came i n 
today?" I s a i d , " I don't know. I've been working a l l day." 
She s a i d , " W e l l , they must have been people o f some 
importance because a p l a n e came t o drop o f f j u s t the two of 
them." So, she went t o check w i t h the desk t o ask. And one 
was S i r John Troutbeck, head o f the B r i t i s h M i d d l e E a s t 
o f f i c e i n C a i r o , and the o t h e r was C o l o n e l Robert 
M a c C l i n t o c k , the s p e c i a l a s s i s t a n t t o Ge n e r a l M a r s h a l l , who 
was then S e c r e t a r y o f S t a t e . They had come i n and I d i d n ' t 
know a n y t h i n g about t h i s . I hadn't been t o l d . L a t e r I was 
t o l d t h a t on the same p l a n e t h a t had brought them i n , Bunche 
had a r r a n g e d f o r a l l the p r e s s people t o l e a v e , s a y i n g t h a t 
they c o u l d get a f r e e f l i g h t t o P a r i s where the Ge n e r a l 
Assembly was g o i n g t o meet. The newspaper people l i k e f r e e 
r i d e s . So, as Troutbeck and M a c C l i n t o c k got o f f one end of 
the p l a n e a l l o f the p r e s s got on the o t h e r end. So, they 
weren't even around. 
JK: T h i s i s the second p a r t of the i n t e r v i e w w i t h W i l l i a m E p s t e i n 
on the f o u n d i n g o f the S t a t e o f I s r a e l . Today's date i s 
26 
October 23, 1990. We were p r e v i o u s l y d i s c u s s i n g the 
n e g o t i a t i o n s a t Rhodes and I wanted t o ask about a couple of 
t h i n g s we had t a l k e d about i n f o r m a l l y . Would you l i k e t o 
t a l k about the i n c i d e n t when the young man was m i s t a k e n f o r 
you? 
E p s t e i n : There was a young Canadian l a w y e r about the same age as 
I , was a v e r y handsome chap. H i s name was Courtney K i n g s t o n e 
and w i t h h i s l o o k s and a name l i k e t h a t you would t h i n k he 
was an a c t o r . He was a member of the l e g a l department. 
S t a v r o p o u l o s was the d i r e c t o r o f the l e g a l department. T h i s 
f e l l o w K i n g s t o n e was a s s i g n e d t o the Be r n a d o t t e m i s s i o n . I 
was l o c a t e d a t the he a d q u a r t e r s a t Rhodes. I was p e r m i t t e d 
t o go t o I s r a e l but not t o the Arab s t a t e s . My c o l l e a g u e , 
S a l e h Mahmoud, was s t a t i o n e d i n the C a i r o o f f i c e and would 
come t o Rhodes o c c a s i o n a l l y and as a r u l e d i d not go i n t o 
I s r a e l . We were t h e r e as a d v i s o r s i n the ar e a of our 
e x p e r t i s e . They were v e r y tense t i m e s . B e r n a d o t t e was 
d r i v i n g t o a l l the d i f f e r e n t c o u n t r i e s t r y i n g t o persuade 
them t o accept some form of m e d i a t i o n . He had come up 
o r i g i n a l l y w i t h h i s f i r s t p l a n i n which he had suggested t h a t 
E a s t J e r u s a l e m , the o l d c i t y of Je r u s a l e m , s h o u l d go t o 
Jor d a n . He agreed t o change h i s mind on t h a t a f t e r w a r d s . 
There were a l o t of s m a l l t h i n g s t h a t had t o be s e t t l e d . 
There was an o i l r e f i n e r y i n H a i f a and t h e r e was a q u e s t i o n 
as t o who was supposed t o own t h a t . I t had been owned by one 
27 
o f the B r i t i s h o i l companies and they d i d n ' t know what t o do 
w i t h i t . I s a i d t h a t t h e r e wasn't a n y t h i n g t h a t they c o u l d 
do w i t h i t except l e t the I s r a e l i a u t h o r i t i e s d e c i d e who 
owned i t . I t was a p r i v a t e company. I t was i n I s r a e l ' s 
t e r r i t o r y . 
There was a l o t o f g u e r r i l l a a c t i v i t y g o i n g on, s m a l l 
f i g h t i n g , no l a r g e t h i n g s . When the s i x weeks of the t r u c e 
was o v e r B e r n a d o t t e had t o go back t o the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l 
and get an e x t e n s i o n . I s r a e l had agreed t o i t s e x t e n s i o n and 
the Arabs had n o t . The S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l then l a y down under 
Chapter V I I t h a t they had t o a c cept i t o r they would be 
s u b j e c t t o s a n c t i o n s . But, i n the meantime t h e r e was a l o t 
o f g u e r r i l l a f i g h t i n g , u n c o n t r o l l e d , s p o r a d i c f i g h t i n g . Once 
when B e r n a d o t t e was v i s i t i n g Amman on some m i s s i o n (he had 
members of h i s s t a f f s t a t i o n e d i n the v a r i o u s c a p i t a l s i n the 
s u r r o u n d i n g s t a t e s ) , Courtney K i n g s t o n e , an a i d t o 
B e r n a d o t t e , was c a p t u r e d by some g u e r r i l l a s . I n s t e a d of 
s h o o t i n g him r i g h t away they put him i n p r i s o n s a y i n g t h a t i t 
was t h a t young Canadian J e w i s h l a w y e r a d v i s i n g the S e c r e t a r y -
G e n e r a l as the J e w i s h e x p e r t . They thought t h a t he was 
W i l l i a m E p s t e i n . He t r i e d t o e x p l a i n t o them who he was and 
what he was. They d i d n ' t b e l i e v e him. He got more and more 
w o r r i e d and s c a r e d . You know t h i n g s were r e a l l y f a i r l y 
c h a o t i c a t t h a t t i m e . You d i d n ' t know who was i n charge. 
Some of these g u e r r i l l a s would shoot f i r s t and ask q u e s t i o n s 
28 
a f t e r w a r d s . He was r e a l l y w o r r i e d and then he s t r u c k the one 
sure way he c o u l d prove t h a t he wasn't the J e w i s h chap, 
W i l l i a m E p s t e i n . He showed them t h a t he was u n c i r c u m c i s e d 
and t h a t was p r o o f enough t h a t he wasn't J e w i s h . So, he 
escaped t h a t way. 
JK: That i s q u i t e a p r o o f . He was l u c k y . 
E p s t e i n : I remember him t e l l i n g me about i t l a t e r . He s a i d , 
"Thank God my p a r e n t s d i d n ' t c i r c u m c i s e me." Then he would 
never have been a b l e t o persuade them. I t was a s c a r y t h i n g 
a t the time f o r him, but i t was an amusing s t o r y a f t e r w a r d s . 
The o t h e r t h i n g t h a t was i n t e r e s t i n g was t h a t Mr. Robert 
M a c C l i n t o c k who was a s s i s t a n t t o S e c r e t a r y o f S t a t e M a r s h a l l 
o f the U n i t e d S t a t e s and S i r John Troutbeck, head of the 
B r i t i s h M i d d l e East o f f i c e i n C a i r o , b o t h a r r i v e d on one 
p l a n e which was o b v i o u s l y p r e a r r a n g e d by Bunche. Bunche had 
t o l d the p r e s s t h a t he had some people coming i n t o d i s c u s s 
the refugee problem. There were a l o t o f r e f u g e e s i n 
d i f f e r e n t camps. We had somebody sent out t o us e a r l i e r from 
the D i s a s t e r R e l i e f s e c t i o n o f the U n i t e d N a t i o n s a t t h a t 
time t o take a l o o k a t what c o u l d be done t o h e l p the Arab 
r e f u g e e s who had gone i n t o Lebanon, Jorda n , Egypt, and the 
s u r r o u n d i n g c o u n t r i e s . They had become a r e a l s t r a i n on 
those gove rnment s. 
These two o f f i c i a l s a r r i v e d . I don't remember i f t h i s was 
29 
a f t e r B e r n a d o t t e had been a s s a s s i n a t e d . 
JK: I f Bunche was a c t i n g m e d i a t o r then i t must have been a f t e r 
the a s s a s s i n a t i o n . 
E p s t e i n : He was a s s a s s i n a t e d i n l a t e September and I remember we 
took o f f f o r P a r i s on the 8 t h o f October. The governor of 
the Dodecanese I s l a n d s (Rhodes was one of the Dodecanese 
I s l a n d s ) had i n v i t e d them and Ralph Bunche and a l l o f the 
s e n i o r s t a f f t o d i n n e r a t h i s government p a l a c e . I was 
n a t u r a l l y i n v i t e d w i t h my w i f e . (She was E n g l i s h . We had 
met d u r i n g the war. She worked f o r the B r i t i s h M i n i s t r y of 
I n f o r m a t i o n . ) There was a shortage o f women around and so 
she s a t between these two pe o p l e . She got t o t a l k i n g t o them 
on a f r i e n d l y b a s i s . She was t e l l i n g them t h a t on the top of 
the mountain on the i s l a n d t h e r e was an a n c i e n t f a c t o r y where 
they made p o t t e r y w i t h the same p a t t e r n s of those g o i n g back 
t o the time o f the a n c i e n t Greeks. They sounded i n t e r e s t e d 
so she s a i d , " W e l l , i f you people are f r e e tomorrow morning, 
I would be happy t o take you up and show you around. They 
arr a n g e d f o r t r a n s p o r t a t i o n , e i t h e r a c a r o r the l o c a l horse 
and buggy, o r I t h i n k i t was a donkey. She went up t h e r e 
w i t h them and they were t e l l i n g h e r what they were d o i n g . 
They t o l d h e r they were t h e r e t o h e l p Bunche f i n a l i z e the 
med i a t o r ' s r e p o r t . 
So, a f t e r t h a t I made i t my b u s i n e s s t o walk i n t o Bunche's 
o f f i c e f r e q u e n t l y and they were always p o u r i n g o v e r maps. 
30 
Then t o my shock and amazement they changed the o r i g i n a l 
r e p o r t we had agreed t o . I n s t e a d o f d i v i d i n g the Negev, the 
d e s e r t i n the south, between the Arabs and the Jews, they had 
cu t o f f the b o r d e r o f I s r a e l a t a p l a c e c a l l e d F a l u j a s o u th 
of T e l A v i v some d i s t a n c e on the c o a s t a l p l a i n . The I s r a e l i 
p a r t o f P a l e s t i n e would then have been j u s t G a l i l e e , the H u l a 
r e g i o n j u s t n o r t h of the Sea o f G a l i l e e , the v a l l e y o f 
J e z r e e l , and the whole M e d i t e r r a n e a n c o a s t down t o F a l u j a . 
A l l the r e s t which was more than h a l f the t e r r i t o r y would be 
g o i n g t o the Arabs. There was some q u e s t i o n which I would 
need t o check on t h a t the B r i t i s h would be a l l o w e d t o keep 
some p r o p e r t y which belonged n e i t h e r t o the Arab S t a t e nor t o 
the J e w i s h S t a t e . 
JK: These changes would have been d i f f e r e n t t h a t those made i n 
the G e n e r a l Assembly P a r t i t i o n P l a n . 
E p s t e i n : C o m p l e t e l y d i f f e r e n t . But they d i d go back t o the i d e a 
t h a t J e r u s a l e m s h o u l d be a corpus separatum. 
JK: Going back then on B e r n a d o t t e ' s s u g g e s t i o n . 
E p s t e i n : B e r n a d o t t e h i m s e l f had r e v e r s e d h i s d e c i s i o n on t h a t 
and went back t o the Ge n e r a l Assembly R e s o l u t i o n . 
I had r e a l l y a v e r y unhappy d i s c u s s i o n w i t h Bunche about t h i s 
and he s a i d , " B i l l , l o o k , the b e s t way t o handle t h i s m a t t e r 
i s t o get the B r i t i s h and the Americans on the same s i d e 
t o g e t h e r i n s t e a d o f the Americans and the R u s s i a n s b o t h 
s u p p o r t i n g the e s t a b l i s h m e n t o f the S t a t e o f I s r a e l . That's 
31 
the b e s t way out of i t . I f they are a t loggerheads w i t h each 
o t h e r , then n o t h i n g w i l l come out of i t . That's what we 
agreed t o and t h e i r governments are s u p p o r t i n g i t and t h a t ' s 
the way i t ' s g o i n g t o have t o be." I t o l d him t h a t i t was 
c o n t r a r y t o what we had agreed b e f o r e and I doubted t h a t i t 
would e v e r be a c c e p t e d by the U n i t e d N a t i o n s because i t was 
c o m p l e t e l y c o n t r a r y t o the d i v i s i o n of the c o u n t r y under the 
P a r t i t i o n P l a n . There was nobody t h e r e we c o u l d mention i t 
t o because a l l the p r e s s people had l e f t . Nobody knew about 
t h i s t h i n g . 
JK: Had Bunche p u r p o s e l y wanted t o get r i d o f the p r e s s a t t h a t 
time? 
E p s t e i n : U n q u e s t i o n a b l y , he d i d n ' t want them around because t h a t 
would have blown the whole s t o r y . The p r e s s would have been 
a s k i n g why are these men here. They were t h e r e t o t e l l 
Bunche what they would agree upon. I t would be t o b r i n g the 
B r i t i s h i n t o the agreement, i n e f f e c t . He d i d n ' t say t h a t he 
had any i n s t r u c t i o n s o r had c l e a r e d i t w i t h the S e c r e t a r y -
G e n e r a l , so I assumed t h a t he was d o i n g t h i s a l l on h i s own. 
As mediator, I suppose he had the a u t h o r i t y t o do a l l t h a t . 
When we got t o P a r i s I remember t e l l i n g t h i s t o Sobolev, the 
head of our department, and t o Abe F e l l e r the l e g a l a d v i s o r 
a t the time t o the S e c r e t a r y - G e n e r a l . They r a i s e d i t w i t h 
Trygve L i e . At one of the meetings I remember Bunche coming 
up t o me f u r i o u s s a y i n g t h a t he wasn't g o i n g t o take t h i s 
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s o r t o f treatment from them. They were r a i s i n g h e l l w i t h him 
f o r not a d h e r i n g more c l o s e l y t o the Assembly R e s o l u t i o n . 
But the work went on and the Assembly went on. At the same 
time the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l was meeting. 
JK: So, the G e n e r a l Assembly and the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l were 
meeting i n P a r i s a t t h a t time. 
E p s t e i n : Yes, i n the f a l l o f 1948 the Assembly s e s s i o n was t h e r e 
and the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l met t h e r e , t o o . 
There were some belea g u e r e d , c u t o f f J e w i s h s e t t l e m e n t s south 
o f F a l u j a . The E g y p t i a n s had e s t a b l i s h e d c o n t r o l of the Gaza 
S t r i p up t o F a l u j a and t h e r e were a few i s o l a t e d s e t t l e m e n t s 
south o f t h a t . P a u l Moan, a Swede, had been l e f t b e h i n d by 
Bunche as the s e n i o r o f f i c e r t h e r e . The I s r a e l i s had come t o 
him and s a i d , "Look, we are not g o i n g t o l e t these 
s e t t l e m e n t s s t a r v e . We need p e r m i s s i o n from the E g y p t i a n s t o 
get through and b r i n g them foo d and water. I t was un d e r s t o o d 
t h a t we would be a b l e t o do t h i s d u r i n g the p e r i o d o f the 
t r u c e . I f we don't get the p e r m i s s i o n , we're g o i n g i n 
o u r s e l v e s anyway." P a u l wrote a l e t t e r t o the E g y p t i a n s a t 
t h a t time s a y i n g t h a t they s h o u l d a l l o w them t o go through 
and i f they d i d n ' t he would a u t h o r i z e them t o go ahead 
anyway. And he d i d . There was a h e l l o f a row about t h a t . 
S i n c e P a u l Moan was the r e p r e s e n t a t i v e on the sp o t . He 
a u t h o r i z e d them t o go but, n o t h i n g came of i t . 
JK: So, the E g y p t i a n s d i d not l e t the I s r a e l i s through? 
33 
E p s t e i n : R i g h t and P a u l a u t h o r i z e d them t o go ahead so, they 
broke t h e i r way through. The E g y p t i a n s complained t h a t t h i s 
was a b r e a c h of the t r u c e . Bunche was g o i n g t o c r i t i c i z e the 
I s r a e l i s o v er the i s s u e but I warned him t h a t I'd u n d e r s t o o d 
from c o n t a c t s w i t h the I s r a e l i s t h a t they had had P a u l Moan's 
p e r m i s s i o n . They had a copy of the l e t t e r t e l l i n g the 
E g y p t i a n s t h a t they had the r i g h t t o go through and h e l p f e e d 
and b r i n g water t o these s e t t l e m e n t s . N o t h i n g came of i t 
but, i t was tense f o r a few days. 
There was another v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g s t o r y . There were a l l of 
these r e f u g e e s i n the E g y p t i a n o c c u p i e d p a r t s and the West 
Bank, J o r d a n i a n o c c u p i e d , and Lebanon. I don't know i f t h e r e 
were any i n S y r i a o r not. There was a r e a l problem w i t h t h i s 
and a b i g s t r a i n on these governments. They were i n camps. 
They d i d n ' t l e t them b l e n d i n t o the c o u n t r y . They kept them 
i n camps. Bunche d e c i d e d t h a t we ought t o s e t up a temporary 
r e l i e f o r g a n i z a t i o n , the U n i t e d N a t i o n s R e l i e f and Works 
Agency f o r P a l e s t i n e r e f u g e e s i n the M i d d l e E a s t . He had a 
team of s e n i o r a d v i s o r s t h a t met w i t h him from time t o time. 
And he had t h i s meeting w i t h Dean Rusk, who was then head of 
the A f r i c a n o r A s i a s e c t i o n of the S t a t e Department. He 
wasn't S e c r e t a r y o f S t a t e u n t i l much l a t e r . Bunche proposed 
t h i s and he needed the American b a c k i n g . N o t h i n g would work 
i n those days w i t h o u t American b a c k i n g . An American once 
s a i d t o me, "Every r e s o l u t i o n adopted by the U n i t e d N a t i o n s 
34 
i s an American r e s o l u t i o n . " T h i s was a b i t a r r o g a n t but i t 
r e a l l y was the t r u t h i n those days. With 51 odd members the 
U n i t e d S t a t e s c o m p l e t e l y dominated the t h i n g . There was a 
d i f f e r e n c e between them and the B r i t i s h o v e r the P a l e s t i n e 
i s s u e but i n g e n e r a l the Western powers a l l went a l o n g . The 
C o l d War got c o l d e r and the R u s s i a n s took o v e r C z e c h o s l o v a k i a 
i n 1948. T h i s a l l happened i n "48. I t h i n k N a z a r i k 
committed s u i c i d e . He was a s t r o n g s u p p o r t e r o f the J e w i s h 
S t a t e as were the R u s s i a n s a t t h a t t i m e . So, Dean Rusk s a i d , 
"No, we're not g o i n g t o agree t o t h a t . T h i s would go on 
f o r e v e r . We would be b u y i n g i n t o something t h a t w i l l go on 
f o r e v e r . " Bunche s a i d , "No, t h i s w i l l j u s t be a temporary 
t h i n g t o t i d e the people over f o r a y e a r o r so u n t i l the 
whole problem i s s o l v e d . " 
JK You are r e f e r r i n g t o the refugee problem. 
E p s t e i n : Yes. Dean Rusk s a i d , "I'm not sure t h i s i s g o i n g t o be 
a temporary t h i n g . I t h i n k we would be b u y i n g a p i g i n a 
poke t h a t i s g o i n g t o l a s t f o r y e a r s . " F i n a l l y Bunche 
persuaded him, s a y i n g t h a t the US was the one t h a t pushed 
through the P a r t i t i o n R e s o l u t i o n and s u p p o r t e d the m e d i a t i o n 
e f f o r t t h a t r e s u l t e d i n t h i s t e r r i b l e problem of the 
r e f u g e e s . They had a moral r e s p o n s i b i l i t y and i t was a 
p o l i t i c a l l y wise t h i n g t o do t o h e l p these r e f u g e e s . 
Otherwise, i t c o u l d be a b i g problem. F i n a l l y , he persuaded 
Dean Rusk and the Americans t o go a l o n g and support a 
35 
r e s o l u t i o n t o e s t a b l i s h t h i s works agency. And i t i s s t i l l 
g o i n g on t o t h i s day. 
JK: So, Dean Rusk was r i g h t . 
E p s t e i n : Dean Rusk was r i g h t . One o t h e r i n t e r e s t i n g t h i n g was 
t h a t t h e r e were f o u r of us working a t n i g h t . There was Ralph 
Bunche, V i g i e r , the o l d League o f N a t i o n s chap, S t a v r o p o u l o s , 
the l e g a l man, and mysel f , the s e n i o r J e w i s h a d v i s o r and the 
s e n i o r o f f i c e r o f the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l P o l i t i c a l A f f a i r s . 
You had t o have people from d i f f e r e n t areas o f the 
S e c r e t a r i a t . We s a t around one n i g h t . There were about 
600,000 Arab r e f u g e e s a t t h a t time. There were r o u g h l y h a l f 
a m i l l i o n o r 600,000 Jews. Egypt had around 190,000 and I r a q 
had some and Yemen, m a i n l y those t h r e e c o u n t r i e s . 
S t a v r o p o u l o s , who was Greek, r e c a l l e d the exchange of Turks 
and Greeks a f t e r WWI and he kept s u g g e s t i n g t h i s t o Bunche. 
T h i s refugee problem w i l l never be s o l v e d . He wanted t o 
b r i n g about an exchange o f p o p u l a t i o n s , Arabs f o r Jews. But, 
Bunche fought t h a t l i k e a t i g e r . We s t a y e d t h e r e a l l n i g h t . 
JK: Do you r e c a l l what Bunche's reasons f o r t h a t were? 
E p s t e i n : Yes, he s a i d t h a t i t was "a f o r c e f u l exchange of 
p o p u l a t i o n s and j u s t imagine what k i n d of precedent t h i s 
would s e t . I n the U n i t e d S t a t e s t h e r e are a l o t of people 
who don't l i k e the Negroes" -- Bunche h i m s e l f was a Negro -¬
"and some wise guy w i l l say, i f we s e t t h i s as a precedent, 
36 
"Why don't we exchange our b l a c k s f o r the w h i t e s i n A f r i c a ? ' " 
He and S t a v r o p o u l o s fought n e a r l y a l l n i g h t . V i g i e r and I 
kept out of i t and almost dozed o f f d u r i n g t h i s l o n g b a t t l e 
a l l e v e n i n g . I t was a v e r y i n t e r e s t i n g t h i n g because 
S t a v r o p o u l o s used t o say, " I am an a n t i - S e m i t e . I don't l i k e 
the Jews o r the S t a t e of I s r a e l , but I am a p r a c t i c a l man." 
I t was q u i t e funny because Bunche was q u i t e s y m p a t h e t i c 
toward the S t a t e of I s r a e l and t o the J e w i s h problem i n the 
w o r l d . They s t i l l had t h e i r problems i n Europe, g e t t i n g the 
r e f u g e e s s e t t l e d i n P a l e s t i n e and now I s r a e l , the exodus. 
Bunche was a r g u i n g a g a i n s t the exchange of p o p u l a t i o n s and 
S t a v r o p o u l o s , who was an avowed a n t i - S e m i t e , a r g u i n g f o r the 
exchange of p o p u l a t i o n s . Bunche o b v i o u s l y won o u t . H i s 
s o l u t i o n was t h i s U n i t e d N a t i o n s R e l i e f and Works Agency. 
S t a v r o p o u l o s was not v e r y f r i e n d l y t o the S t a t e o f I s r a e l . 
Greece was one of the l a t e s t c o u n t r i e s t o e s t a b l i s h r e l a t i o n s 
w i t h them. They d i d n ' t have d i p l o m a t i c r e l a t i o n s w i t h them 
f o r many, many y e a r s . S t a v r o p o u l o s s a i d the exchange of the 
Greeks and the Turks worked s u c c e s s f u l l y a f t e r WWI and I 
always thought t h a t was an i n t e r e s t i n g i d e a . I n f a c t , I 
remember someone s a y i n g l a t e r t h a t Bunche was r e s p o n s i b l e f o r 
k e e p i n g a l l these r e f u g e e s i n these camps, you know 
u n w i t t i n g l y . Bunche got the Nobel Peace P r i z e l a t e r f o r h i s 
t r u c e s e t t l e m e n t s . 
JK: How d i d he o p e r a t e as a mediator? Was he a b l e t o b r i n g the 
37 
Arabs and the I s r a e l i s t o g e t h e r ? 
E p s t e i n : Not t o g e t h e r , I ' l l t e l l you s h o r t l y what d i d happen. 
Anyhow, The I s r a e l i s went beyond F a l u j a . The B r i t i s h put 
f o r t h a r e s o l u t i o n , s a y i n g t h a t the I s r a e l i s had t o p u l l 
back. They c o u l d n ' t s t a y where they were. I f they d i d n ' t 
p u l l back they would take a c t i o n a g a i n s t them under Chapter 
Seven of the C h a r t e r . Bunche had met p r i v a t e l y , though I was 
t h e r e , too, w i t h the members of the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l d e a l i n g 
w i t h t h i s s p e c i f i c i s s u e . The Americans went a l o n g w i t h t h i s 
r e s o l u t i o n . There was somebody t h e r e from the " N a t i o n " 
magazine, a M i s s L i l l y S h u l t z . Freda Kirchway was the E d i t o r 
o f the " N a t i o n " then. She saw what was happening w i t h the 
American d e l e g a t i o n , g o i n g a l o n g w i t h t h r e a t e n i n g s a n c t i o n s 
a g a i n s t I s r a e l i f they d i d n ' t p u l l t h e i r t r o o p s o u t . I t was 
a tough s i t u a t i o n . You don't p u l l t r o o p s out t h a t e a s i l y as 
we're f i n d i n g r i g h t now. She sent a c a b l e t o some people i n 
the American government. T h i s was on the eve o f the e l e c t i o n 
i n November and they got t h rough t o Truman and t o l d him what 
was g o i n g on. She'd w r i t t e n up i n the magazine how S i r John 
Troutbeck and Robert M a c C l i n t o c k had come and t a i n t e d the new 
m e d i a t o r ' s r e p o r t . R a l p h Bunche's r e p o r t . She s a i d they 
were t h r e a t e n i n g s a n c t i o n s a g a i n s t I s r a e l . The meeting took 
p l a c e and people were b e i n g c a l l e d t o the back of the room. 
We were s i t t i n g on the stage o f the Trocadero b u i l d i n g i n 
P a r i s , where the c o n f e r e n c e was h e l d . I d i d n ' t know what was 
38 
g o i n g on so, I was n o s i n g around t r y i n g t o f i n d out. I was 
t o l d t h a t the P r e s i d e n t had sent a c a b l e t o Warren A u s t i n , 
who was then the American r e p r e s e n t a t i v e , s a y i n g , "What's 
t h i s nonsense of u s i n g s a n c t i o n s a g a i n s t the I s r a e l i s ? We 
won't support them." A u s t i n got t h a t c a b l e i n the morning. 
He c a l l e d S i r A l e x a n d e r Cadogan t o t a l k t o him. P r e t t y soon 
a l l o f the d e l e g a t i o n s were l e a v i n g t h e i r s e a t s t o t a l k t o 
him. Sobolev and Trygve L i e asked me, "What's g o i n g on?" I 
s a i d , " I t h i n k t h a t the Americans have r e c e i v e d a c a b l e not 
t o accept any a n t i - I s r a e l i r e s o l u t i o n o ver t h i s s i t u a t i o n 
down i n the Negev. The Americans had t o t e l l t h i s t o the 
B r i t i s h and t o the o t h e r s . " They hadn't heard a word about 
i t . Nobody had t o l d them. That's a c t u a l l y what happened. 
About t h a t time j u s t a day o r two l a t e r Gideon R a f a e l o f the 
I s r a e l i d e l e g a t i o n -- he wrote t h i s i n h i s book, not 
m e n t i o n i n g me by name, j u s t s a y i n g a member of the 
S e c r e t a r i a t -- asked me f o r h e l p i n d r a f t i n g a r e s o l u t i o n . I 
f e l t i t was p a r t o f my j o b . I was l i a i s o n w i t h the I s r a e l i s 
under i n s t r u c t i o n from Trygve L i e and Sobolev. We s a t down 
i n a c a f e l a t e a t n i g h t a f t e r h a v i n g d i n n e r t o g e t h e r . I 
h e l p e d him d r a f t a r e s o l u t i o n which i n s t e a d o f c a l l i n g on the 
I s r a e l i s t o p u l l back t o the p r e - F a l u j a l i n e s which were i n 
the r e p o r t , i t c a l l e d f o r the e s t a b l i s h m e n t of the Truce 
S u p e r v i s i o n O r g a n i z a t i o n , which would e s t a b l i s h t r u c e l i n e s 
between the p a r t i e s and t h a t the p a r t i e s would not be 
39 
p e r m i t t e d t o c r o s s those t r u c e l i n e s . He l i k e d t h a t 
r e s o l u t i o n and s o l d i t t o h i s government. They c i r c u l a t e d i t 
and showed i t t o the Canadians, t o Pearson, and t o Belgium 
and one o t h e r c o u n t r y , t h r e e c o u n t r i e s t h a t were then members 
of the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l . They put f o r w a r d t h i s r e s o l u t i o n 
and i t was adopted on the 16th o f November which e s t a b l i s h e d 
the t r u c e l i n e s beyond which the p a r t i e s s h o u l d not c r o s s , 
the t r u c e l i n e s as they were then. That was something t h a t 
was p o s s i b l e and f e a s i b l e . There was no way you c o u l d p u l l 
the t r o o p s back u n l e s s you were g o i n g t o have s a n c t i o n s 
a g a i n s t them. That was adopted and t h a t eased t h a t whole 
s i t u a t i o n . 
JK: D i d the Arabs agree t o those t r u c e l i n e s ? 
E p s t e i n : W e l l , they d i d n ' t know how e l s e t o handle the 
s i t u a t i o n . I don't know what the vote was. I'm sure they 
d i d n ' t support i t . The o r i g i n a l r e s o l u t i o n c a l l e d on I s r a e l 
t o withdraw i t s t r o o p s and t h r e a t e n e d s a n c t i o n s . T h i s 
r e p l a c e d i t . I t s h o u l d n ' t be too d i f f i c u l t t o c o n s u l t the 
r e c o r d . The date was November, 1948. That s e t t l e d the 
problem of s a n c t i o n s . I t a l s o i n e f f e c t s e t t l e d the problem 
of these t r u c e l i n e s and what would be the l i n e s o f the 
f u t u r e s e t t l e m e n t . When the m e d i a t o r ' s r e p o r t came up f o r a 
v o t e -- I don't remember i f i t had B e r n a d o t t e ' s s i g n a t u r e on 
i t o r not -- the committee recommended support f o r the 
m e d i a t o r ' s p l a n w i t h the b o r d e r s and as I p r e d i c t e d i t d i d n ' t 
40 
c a r r y . I t was d e f e a t e d on a t i e v o t e . I ' l l never f o r g e t S i r 
H a r o l d B e a l y was s i t t i n g t h e r e and t u r n e d t o h i s deputy 
s a y i n g , "We j u s t had an u n m i t i g a t e d d i s a s t e r , S i r . " He t o l d 
him l o u d enough t h a t we c o u l d hear. The meeting was o v e r . 
He s a i d , "We j u s t l o s t the r e s o l u t i o n and now e v e r y t h i n g i s 
open. They c o n t e n t e d themselves w i t h e s t a b l i s h i n g the 
P a l e s t i n e C o n c i l i a t i o n Commission which was supposed t o c a r r y 
on the work of c o n c i l i a t i o n . 
I n January, Bunche got a c a b l e from the E g y p t i a n s t h a t they 
were ready now f o r e s t a b l i s h i n g some k i n d of peace o r t r u c e . 
So, he went t o the I s l a n d of Rhodes and c a l l e d the E g y p t i a n s 
i n and he r e p r e s e n t e d the S e c r e t a r y - G e n e r a l . I d i d n ' t go 
back. He produced the f i r s t t r u c e agreement. The next one 
was I t h i n k w i t h J o r d a n . And the t h i r d one w i t h Lebanon. I 
remember he gave a l l of them these b i g p l a t t e r s t h a t had been 
made by the p o t t e r s up on the h i l l i n Rhodes. He t o l d us a 
j o k e t h a t he had t o l d b o t h the E g y p t i a n and the I s r a e l i 
d e l e g a t i o n s who were meeting w i t h him t h e r e t h a t i f they 
d i d n ' t agree w i t h him on t h i s t r u c e he was g o i n g t o break 
these p l a t e s o v e r t h e i r heads. I f they d i d agree he was 
g o i n g t o p r e s e n t them w i t h these p l a t e s as p r e s e n t s . That 
was a w i s e c r a c k , o f c o u r s e . That was the b r e a k t h r o u g h , the 
d i r e c t c o n t a c t under Bunche. I t became the Truce S u p e r v i s i o n 
Agreement. T h i s was w i t h Egypt. Then they worked one out 
w i t h J o r d a n and Lebanon and f i n a l l y w i t h S y r i a . S y r i a d i d n ' t 
41 
have one t i l l months l a t e r . They were tough. T h i s a l l 
happened f a i r l y q u i c k l y because they had t o do something t o 
s t o p the f i g h t i n g and t o implement the R e l i e f and Works 
Agency. 
JK: I n your o p i n i o n why d i d Bunche d e c i d e t o n e g o t i a t e s e p a r a t e l y 
w i t h each Arab c o u n t r y ? 
E p s t e i n : For two reasons, the E g y p t i a n s sent him a c a b l e s a y i n g 
they would l i k e t o n e g o t i a t e w i t h him. 
JK: So, they were the f i r s t t o come fo r w a r d . 
E p s t e i n : Yes, as they were many y e a r s l a t e r when Sadat went 
t h e r e . Bunche was q u i t e c o n v i n c e d by t h a t time t h a t anytime 
you got the Arabs i n a group t o g e t h e r they always took the 
h a r d e s t l i n e . I t was a c o m p e t i t i o n t o not be s o f t on the 
I s r a e l i s . That was the one way t o guarantee no s u c c e s s . On 
a one-on-one b a s i s t h e r e was a much b e t t e r chance of s u c c e s s . 
That became one of the g u i d e l i n e s throughout. That was a 
tremendous b r e a k t h r o u g h and Bunche got a Nobel Peace P r i z e 
f o r t h a t . I always had the f e e l i n g t h a t Trygve L i e ' s nose 
was s l i g h t l y out o f j o i n t t h a t they gave i t t o Bunche when 
Bunche was a c t i n g on h i s i n s t r u c t i o n s . 
JK: Was Bunche p a r t i c u l a r l y good a t g e t t i n g the two s i d e s t o 
agree? 
E p s t e i n : He was good a t u r g i n g h i s p o i n t o f view on everybody, 
v e r y good at t h a t . For example, he t a l k e d Dean Rusk, who was 
c e r t a i n l y an a b l e n e g o t i a t o r and t a l k e r , i n t o a g r e e i n g t o s e t 
42 
up UNRWA. L a t e r , he t a l k e d the E g y p t i a n s and the I s r a e l i s 
i n t o a g r e e i n g t o t h i s Truce S u p e r v i s i o n Agreement. And those 
t h i n g s l a s t e d f o r a l o n g , l o n g t i m e . The Truce S u p e r v i s i o n 
took ca r e o f the m i l i t a r y and the b o r d e r q u e s t i o n s and the 
P a l e s t i n e C o n c i l i a t i o n Commission was somehow supposed t o 
work out a c o n c i l i a t i o n between the Jews and the Arab s t a t e s . 
The Arab s t a t e s always r e f u s e d t o r e c o g n i z e I s r a e l . They 
always wanted t o go through a me d i a t o r o r the S e c r e t a r y -
G e n e r a l ' s r e p r e s e n t a t i v e o r something l i k e t h a t , t h e r e a f t e r . 
The refugee s i d e was tak e n c a r e o f by UNRWA. The s i t u a t i o n 
was m o r e - o r - l e s s s t a b i l i z e d . Bunche got the Nobel Peace 
P r i z e and i n 1949 I s r a e l was a d m i t t e d i n t o the U n i t e d 
N a t i o n s . The s i t u a t i o n was s t a b i l i z e d . 
I n 1949, a f t e r r e a c h i n g the Truce S u p e r v i s i o n Agreements and 
the agreements between I s r a e l and i t s f o u r n e i g h b o r s , t h e r e 
was r e a l l y hope t h a t t h i s t h i n g was on t r a c k f o r some k i n d o f 
a s o l u t i o n . 
JK: On a permanent b a s i s . 
E p s t e i n : I s r a e l was now a member o f the UN. The m i l i t a r y 
s i t u a t i o n was ta k e n c a r e of by the f o u r Truce S u p e r v i s i o n 
O r g a n i z a t i o n s . You had the refugee problem t a k e n c a r e of by 
the UNRWA and you had the C o n c i l i a t i o n Commission s e t up 
which was supposed t o s e t up n e g o t i a t i o n s w i t h the Arabs and 
the I s r a e l i s t o s e t up some k i n d o f a peace s e t t l e m e n t . But 
the Arabs j u s t p l a i n r e f u s e d t o r e c o g n i z e the e x i s t e n c e of 
43 
I s r a e l . They wouldn't budge on t h a t . For a y e a r o r two 
t h i n g s were f a i r l y q u i e t but, then they s t a r t e d up a g a i n and 
i n 1956 when Nasser took over Egypt we had the 1956 War. 
JK: The f i g h t i n g was never c o m p l e t e l y r e s o l v e d . 
E p s t e i n : But i t was on a low key. I t was more marauding and 
g u e r r i l l a s and t e r r o r i s t s and so f o r t h , low key bloodshed, 
not armed f o r c e s as such. A l l the g r e a t hopes of "4 9 and "50 
d i s a p p e a r e d . We s t i l l have the problems today. 
JK: T h i s c o n c l u d e s our d i s c u s s i o n on t h i s t o p i c . I want t o thank 
you f o r b e i n g so c a n d i d w i t h y o ur comments and t a k i n g time t o 
share your e x p e r i e n c e s w i t h us. 
JK: T h i s i s the t h i r d p a r t o f the i n t e r v i e w w i t h W i l l i a m E p s t e i n 
and t a k e s p l a c e i n the UNITAR b u i l d i n g i n New York on October 
25, 1990. T h i s p o r t i o n of the i n t e r v i e w w i l l d e a l w i t h the 
Suez c r i s i s . F i r s t , I'd l i k e t o ask you what your p o s i t i o n 
was and what r o l e you p l a y e d a t the UN d u r i n g the Suez c r i s i s 
i n 1956. 
E p s t e i n : I was the c h i e f o f the Disarmament and M i l i t a r y 
Agreements S e c t i o n a t t h a t time which was a s e c t i o n t h a t was 
o r i g i n a l l y supposed t o have been the M i l i t a r y Agreements and 
Enforcement D i v i s i o n . There weren't any enforcement measures 
so they reduced i t from a d i v i s i o n t o a s e c t i o n . 
44 
JK: A t the time of the c r i s i s i n 1956 d u r i n g t h a t summer Nasser 
had n a t i o n a l i z e d the c a n a l . There had been n e g o t i a t i o n s 
g o i n g on t o t r y t o r e s o l v e the d i s p u t e s o v er the c a n a l . 
E p s t e i n : L e t me go back a l i t t l e b i t f u r t h e r . I had been i n 
London t h a t summer where the subcommittee on disarmament, the 
f i v e powers, were h o l d i n g t h e i r meeting a t L a n c a s t e r House i n 
London. One of the young B r i t i s h F o r e i g n O f f i c e chaps who 
was on t h e i r disarmament d e l e g a t i o n and whom I became q u i t e 
f r i e n d l y w i t h was h a v i n g l u n c h w i t h me one day. T h i s was 
a f t e r the n a t i o n a l i z a t i o n of the Suez C a n a l . He asked me a 
q u e s t i o n t h a t rang a b e l l i n my mind because i t d i d n ' t make 
sense. He s a i d , "Don't you t h i n k the I s r a e l i s might take 
umbrage over the n a t i o n a l i z i n g o f the Suez Canal because t h a t 
would p r e v e n t I s r a e l i s h i p s from g o i n g through the Can a l ? " 
He thought the I s r a e l i s might r e a c t . There were o t h e r 
grounds, too, because t h e r e had been Fedayeen and marauder 
a t t a c k s a g a i n s t I s r a e l . The f a c t t h a t he asked t h i s about 
the I s r a e l i s made me take note because t h i s was not the s o r t 
o f remark one would make. I t was the B r i t i s h and the French 
who had owned the Suez Canal Company and had c o n t r o l l e d the 
C a n a l . So, why drag i n the I s r a e l i s ? I d i d n ' t t h i n k about 
i t u n t i l I s r a e l d i d a t t a c k and then the B r i t i s h and the 
French announced t h a t t hey were g o i n g t o occupy t e n 
k i l o m e t e r s on each s i d e of the c a n a l t o p r e s e r v e the c a n a l 
a g a i n s t damage from the I s r a e l i and E g y p t i a n f i g h t i n g . That 
45 
was phony as h e l l . L a t e r on we l e a r n e d t h a t t h e r e was an 
u n d e r s t a n d i n g between the I s r a e l i s , the B r i t i s h , and the 
French. The I s r a e l i s s h o u l d go i n and f i g h t and then the 
o t h e r two would take o v e r from t h e r e . 
JK: They had been p l a n n i n g i t f o r a w h i l e . 
E p s t e i n : R i g h t , they had been p l a n n i n g i t . When I had t a l k e d t o 
t h a t young man -- he knew I was i n the UN -- he mentioned the 
p o s s i b i l i t y o f t h a t and I laughed i t o f f . I d i d n ' t t h i n k 
t h a t I s r a e l would go i n t o a war t o p u l l the Canal Company's 
c h e s t n u t s out o f the f i r e . They had s u f f e r e d enough i n the 
War o f L i b e r a t i o n i n 1948. They had f i v e o r s i x thousand 
people k i l l e d out of a p o p u l a t i o n of o n l y 600,000. That was 
t h e i r b i g war. I had f o r g o t t e n about the t h i n g and then 
a l o n g about i n October the I s r a e l i s d i d s t a r t something. 
Eban and Golda M e i r and everybody e l s e around here s a i d they 
were r e s p o n d i n g t o a t t a c k s on them from the Fedayeen coming 
from Egypt. That's why they had t o do i t , i n o t h e r words, 
s e l f - d e f e n s e . I t ' s p e r m i t t e d under A r t i c l e 51 of the 
C h a r t e r . The Arabs were a l l i n s u l t e d . The c h a r a c t e r o f the 
war changed when the B r i t i s h and the French went i n t h e r e t o 
occupy the Suez C a n a l . Then they d i d i t so s t u p i d l y . The 
I s r a e l i s had gone r i g h t t o the banks of the Canal i n s i x 
days. Then the B r i t i s h got h e l d up a t P o r t S a i d by the 
E g y p t i a n s f o r a h e l l o f a l o n g time. 
JK: J u s t t o back up a l i t t l e b i t , I wanted t o ask about the 
46 
n e g o t i a t i o n s t h a t had been g o i n g on i n New York p r i o r t o the 
a t t a c k when Dag Hammarskjold was meeting w i t h F o r e i g n 
M i n i s t e r Fawzi o f Egypt. 
E p s t e i n : And Abba Eban. I ' l l never f o r g e t those c o n v e r s a t i o n s . 
Gideon R a f a e l was a l o n g w i t h Eban as h i s s e n i o r a d v i s o r . 
Eban was I s r a e l ' s Ambassador t o Washington and t o the U n i t e d 
N a t i o n s . R a f a e l was a l o n g d u r i n g one of the d i s c u s s i o n s 
between Eban and Dag Hammarskjold. He t o l d me a f t e r w a r d s , 
"You know, B i l l , i t was a t e r r i b l e meeting. N e i t h e r one 
c o u l d get a word i n edgewise because the o t h e r was t a l k i n g 
a l l the ti m e . " They were b o t h e l o q u e n t speakers. They b o t h 
had a g r e a t c a p a b i l i t y w i t h the use of the E n g l i s h language. 
JK: You are t a l k i n g about the c o n v e r s a t i o n between Eban and 
Hammarskjold? 
E p s t e i n : Yes, and a c t u a l l y I was t o l d by some people a t the 
time. Eban was a s c h o l a r and h i s Hebrew was b e t t e r than t h a t 
o f the I s r a e l i s and h i s A r a b i c was b e t t e r than t h a t of the 
Arabs . H i s A r a b i c was c l a s s i c a l and so was h i s Hebrew. H i s 
E n g l i s h was b e t t e r than t h a t of the B r i t i s h . A l e x a n d e r 
Cadogan always s a i d t h a t he was the b e s t b r a i n and speaker of 
E n g l i s h around. When Eban came up t o speak a l l of the 
d e l e g a t i o n s came i n from the l o b b i e s and the h a l l s t o hear 
him. 
But I don't know too much about what went on because I was no 
l o n g e r i n the M i d d l e E a s t s e c t i o n . A l l I know i s from my 
47 
c o n t a c t s w i t h the I s r a e l i s . I had a l o t o f f r i e n d s amongst 
them. And I had a few f r i e n d s amongst the Ara b s . Fawzi s a t 
i n one room up t h e r e on the 38th f l o o r and Eban i n another 
room. Dag Hammarskjold would go r u n n i n g from one t o the 
o t h e r . I t was odd but, the E g y p t i a n s would not s i t i n the 
same room w i t h the I s r a e l i s . That i s the main t r o u b l e i n the 
M i d d l e E a s t . The Arabs won't t a l k t o the I s r a e l i s o r d i s c u s s 
t h i n g s w i t h them. They always i n s i s t t h a t t h e r e has t o be a 
m e d i a t o r o r an i n t e r m e d i a r y . There has t o be somebody e l s e 
i n between, a t h i r d p a r t y . 
JK: In Hammarskjold's t a l k s w i t h L l o y d and Pineau d u r i n g t h a t 
p e r i o d b e f o r e the c r i s i s , d i d he conduct those meetings i n 
the same way? 
E p s t e i n : No, he d i d n ' t need t o put them i n s e p a r a t e rooms. He 
c o u l d meet w i t h them t o g e t h e r o r s e p a r a t e l y as i t s u i t e d him. 
But Hammarskjold was l i v i d a t them. The t h i n g which I 
remembered most was the Canadian Ambassador a t the time, R.A. 
Mackay. I was v e r y f r i e n d l y w i t h him a t the time. We were 
h a v i n g a d r i n k a t the b a r . They were meeting a l l n i g h t i n 
those days, the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l and the Ge n e r a l Assembly. 
When t h e r e were v e t o e s i n the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l they would 
move over t o the Ge n e r a l Assembly. There were v e t o e s on two 
t h i n g s . The R u s s i a n s were v e t o i n g the Hungarian f i g h t i n g 
t h a t was g o i n g on and the B r i t i s h and the French v e t o i n g the 
Suez i s s u e s . I s a i d t o t h i s Canadian, "I t h i n k the B r i t i s h 
48 
have l o s t t h e i r marbles. They've gone mad." He s a i d , 
" A b s o l u t e l y , I j u s t cannot u n d e r s t a n d them." L l o y d was the 
man i n London but, t h e i r man here was Pearson Dixon. He was 
a v e r y n i c e guy and always v e r y f r i e n d l y w i t h Hammarskjold. 
Hammarskjold was l i v i d because he thought he had been double 
c r o s s e d . He r e l i e d a l o t on the B r i t i s h and the French t o 
a c t as c o u n t e r w e i g h t s i n the f i g h t s between the R u s s i a n s and 
the Americans. Here the R u s s i a n s and the Americans were 
t o g e t h e r . The R u s s i a n s were on Nasser's s i d e . The Americans 
had t o oppose the a g g r e s s i o n . I n those days the U n i t e d 
S t a t e s f i g u r e d t hey r a n the UN, which they d i d , i n f a c t . 
JK: Immediately a f t e r the a t t a c k t h e r e was a meeting of the 
S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l . What went on i n t h a t meeting? 
E p s t e i n : I don't remember the d e t a i l s , but I do know t h a t t h e r e 
was some k i n d o f a r e s o l u t i o n c a l l i n g on the B r i t i s h t o p u l l 
o u t . They went i n on October 3 0 t h . 
JK: R i g h t , the I s r a e l i s a t t a c k e d on October 29th and the B r i t i s h 
went i n the next day. 
E p s t e i n : The I s r a e l i s had h i t the banks of the Canal and the 
B r i t i s h were s t i l l s t u c k i n P o r t S a i d . Then on November 2nd 
t h e r e was a meeting o f the G e n e r a l Assembly. The r e s o l u t i o n s 
had a l r e a d y been v e t o e d i n the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l . That's the 
n i g h t t h a t I was h a v i n g a d r i n k a t the b a r w i t h the Canadian 
Ambassador. E a r l i e r t h a t day Mike Pearson had put f o r t h the 
i d e a o f h a v i n g a peace-keeping f o r c e t o s e p a r a t e the p a r t i e s 
49 
as a b u f f e r between them. I t c o u l d o n l y be done w i t h the 
consent of the p a r t i e s because i t was not an enforcement 
measure. 
JK: Now, you c a l l e d him Mike Pearson. That i s L e s t e r Pearson? 
E p s t e i n : Yes, everybody c a l l e d him Mike. As a m a t t e r o f f a c t he 
c a l l s h i s memoirs Mike Pearson. You might take a l o o k a t h i s 
memoirs. He would p r o b a b l y t e l l t h a t s t o r y . I was v e r y 
f r i e n d l y w i t h John Holmes who d i e d j u s t a s h o r t time ago. He 
was Pearson's p e r s o n a l a s s i s t a n t and t r a v e l e d w i t h him a l l 
over . He had been charge d ' a f f a i r s i n Moscow when Pearson 
was t h e r e . G e o f f r e y Murray was a more j u n i o r f e l l o w . He was 
here w i t h the d e l e g a t i o n permanently a t the UN Canadian 
M i s s i o n . So, i t was John Holmes and G e o f f r e y Murray. 
Pearson came down w i t h t h i s i d e a and Hammarskjold s a i d , " I t ' s 
not i n the C h a r t e r . How are you g o i n g t o get the p a r t i e s t o 
agree? Who i s g o i n g t o p r o v i d e f o r c e s f o r t h i s ? " 
So, Mike Pearson went back t o Ottawa and got i t approved by 
the C a b i n e t and came back t o Hammarskjold and s a i d , "Look, 
I've got a p i e c e of paper i n my pocket t h a t says t h a t we w i l l 
put up f o r c e s . " Hammarskjold's eyes opened up and he snapped 
i n t o i t . He thought the whole t h i n g was f e a s i b l e then. 
JK: Why would he t h i n k i t was more f e a s i b l e w i t h the Canadian 
f o r c e s ? 
E p s t e i n : Because nobody had f o r c e s . Once the Canadian f o r c e s 
were a v a i l a b l e i t was d i f f e r e n t . The Canadians had a 
50 
r e p u t a t i o n f o r b e i n g good, p o s i t i v e members. We had been 
i n v o l v e d i n e v e r y s i n g l e o b s e r v e r m i s s i o n and f o r c e s , w i t h 
one e x c e p t i o n . They have been i n v o l v e d i n e v e r y one o f them. 
They have been regard e d as one of the b e s t members of the UN 
on peace-keeping, development, a l l of the good t h i n g s . They 
used t o take a more a c t i v e p a r t i n disarmament than they do 
now. 
JK: Had the Canadians a l l a l o n g f e l t t h a t the UN ought t o have 
some k i n d of f o r c e s a v a i l a b l e . Had t h i s been a l o n g term 
idea? 
E p s t e i n : Yes, a b s o l u t e l y . I u n d e r s t o o d i t from t a l k i n g t o Mike 
Pearson. He s a i d , "Look, Canada i s i n an awkward p o s i t i o n . 
We have our t i e s w i t h the B r i t i s h and w i t h the French. We 
are p a r t of the Commonwealth, but we have s t r o n g economic 
t i e s w i t h the U n i t e d S t a t e s . I f the B r i t i s h and the U n i t e d 
S t a t e s are on the same s i d e of any q u e s t i o n i t i s v e r y hard 
f o r us t o maneuver. When they are not on the same s i d e then 
we can use the UN c a r d and t h a t w i l l g i v e us a r e a l r o l e . 
The UN c a r d , anyhow, g i v e s us a chance t o r e s i s t d i r e c t 
p r e s s u r e s from the Americans o r the B r i t i s h . " That's 
u n d e r s t a n d a b l e . Mike Pearson was a good man and he had a 
s t r o n g b e l i e f i n the UN. He a b s o l u t e l y b e l i e v e d t h a t i t was 
i n Canada's b e s t i n t e r e s t t h a t the UN s h o u l d be s t r o n g and 
a c t i v e and p o w e r f u l . So, he came back w i t h t h i s paper i n h i s 
p o c k e t . 
51 
They had t o go through the Gen e r a l Assembly t o s e t up t h i s 
U n i t e d N a t i o n s Emergency F o r c e . That n i g h t when they were 
g o i n g t o adopt the r e s o l u t i o n , about 11 o ' c l o c k a t n i g h t , 
Dragon P r o t i t c h , a Yugoslav who was U n d e r s e c r e t a r y f o r the 
Department o f P o l i t i c a l and S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l A f f a i r s , grabbed 
h o l d of F. Y. C h i and m y s e l f . C h i was S e c r e t a r y of the 
S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l and I was c h i e f o f the Disarmament and 
M i l i t a r y Agreements S e c t i o n . That was the shrunken form o f 
the o l d enforcement measures d i v i s i o n . They were supposed t o 
make m i l i t a r y agreements and under those agreements make 
f o r c e s a v a i l a b l e t o the UN. That's where the m i l i t a r y 
agreements came i n . When I was t h e r e I had done a complete 
survey o f a l l the m i l i t a r y agreements t h a t the Americans had 
made w i t h o t h e r c o u n t r i e s . They would come t o the a i d o f the 
UN. That's why I was c a l l e d i n . He c a l l e d C h i and me. He 
s a i d , "Look, t h i s r e s o l u t i o n i s g o i n g t o pass. Hammarskjold 
wants t o s e t up t h i s emergency f o r c e . They are h a v i n g a 
meeting a t 11 o ' c l o c k i n the morning and I have got t o get a 
memo from you two imm e d i a t e l y . So, go t o work on i t and get 
me a memo on how we go about s e t t i n g up t h i s emergency 
f o r c e . " I l o o k e d a t C h i and he l o o k e d a t me. I had been i n 
the army. I had been a l o u s y c a p t a i n a t m i l i t a r y 
h e a d q u a r t e r s , but t o s e t up t h i s whole damn f o r c e and t o do 
i t a l l i n a h u r r y so t h a t he c o u l d have something ready by 11 
o ' c l o c k i n the morning. Boy, we were stunned. So, I had a 
52 
b r i l l i a n t i d e a . John Holmes, Pearson's a s s i s t a n t , was around 
and I thought, " I ' l l get h o l d of John." I s t a r t e d l o o k i n g 
a l l around the damned Assembly and the b a r . I went around 
l o o k i n g f o r John around m i d n i g h t . Then I suddenly saw him i n 
the c o r r i d o r j u s t o u t s i d e the G e n e r a l Assembly h a l l . I went 
r u n n i n g towards him and he saw me and s t a r t e d r u n n i n g towards 
me. I s a i d , "God, John, I've got t o t a l k t o you." And he 
s a i d , " B i l l , I've got t o t a l k t o you." And I s a i d , "No, I've 
got t o t a l k t o you f i r s t . " I must have shouted l o u d e r than 
he d i d . I s a i d , "Look, I've been l o o k i n g a l l o v e r f o r you. 
Ch i and I have been asked t o p r e p a r e a r e p o r t on how t o go 
about e s t a b l i s h i n g t h i s emergency f o r c e . S i n c e Canada put i t 
fo r w a r d we thought you might have some i d e a s about i t . " He 
s a i d , "I've been l o o k i n g a l l o v e r f o r you f i g u r i n g you might 
have some i d e a s on how we c o u l d s e t i t up." 
JK: Because i t had t o be done v e r y q u i c k l y . 
E p s t e i n : Yes, and nobody had r e a l l y thought i t through v e r y 
w e l l . So, poor C h i and I s a t around. I was no h e l p t o John 
Holmes and he was no h e l p t o me. 
JK: Hammarskjold i n i t i a l l y was not v e r y e n t h u s i a s t i c about t h i s 
p r o p o s a l . 
E p s t e i n : He wasn't, but when Mike Pearson came back w i t h the 
a u t h o r i z a t i o n from the Canadian C a b i n e t t o p r o v i d e f o r c e s f o r 
UNEF. He saw t h a t the r e s o l u t i o n was g o i n g t o go through and 
he had f o r c e s t o c a l l on. Then he d i d a q u i c k f l i p f l o p and 
53 
I t h i n k t h a t comes out i n B r i a n U r q u h a r t ' s book on 
Hammarskjold. I f i t doesn't I've s a i d i t . B r i a n came i n 
l a t e r . I don't t h i n k he was i n v o l v e d a t t h a t t i m e . I t was 
the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l Department and C h i was the Deputy 
S e c r e t a r y of the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l . P r o t i t c h was the 
S e c r e t a r y . I was w o r k i n g on the m i l i t a r y agreements and 
enforcement measures. A l t h o u g h we d i d n ' t have much t o do. I 
had done a b i g assembly o f a l l b i l a t e r a l m i l i t a r y agreements. 
The US always put i n a c l a u s e about u s i n g f o r c e s a g a i n s t 
a g g r e s s i o n . 
JK: What were the p r o v i s i o n t h a t you came up w i t h , then? 
E p s t e i n : C h i and I chewed i t around t r y i n g t o f i g u r e out how t o 
go about t h i s t h i n g . We were not m i l i t a r y e x p e r t s . The 
M i l i t a r y S t a f f Committee was c o m p l e t e l y out of the p i c t u r e 
then. They c o u l d have done something on i t . They were 
a b s o l u t e l y moribund because o f the East/West s t a l e m a t e . 
F i n a l l y we came up w i t h the b r i g h t i d e a and the o n l y i d e a we 
c o u l d come up w i t h and was a b s o l u t e l y r i g h t . We p r e p a r e d a 
b r i e f one page memo t o P r o t i t c h s a y i n g , "This r e q u i r e s people 
who know a l l about the l o g i s t i c s , the s i z e of the f o r c e s , the 
na t u r e of the f o r c e s , the weapons of the f o r c e s . That 
r e q u i r e s s p e c i a l i z e d i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t i s not a v a i l a b l e here 
i n the S e c r e t a r i a t . But we t h i n k the most i m p o r t a n t t h i n g 
t h a t you've got t o do and the one t h i n g t h a t i s a b s o l u t e l y 
e s s e n t i a l i s t h a t you've got t o a p p o i n t a C h i e f o f S t a f f . " 
54 
We d i d n ' t t e l l him whom t o a p p o i n t . He d i d n ' t need our 
a d v i c e on t h a t . We s a i d t h a t t h a t was the f i r s t 
i n d i s p e n s a b l e s t e p t o t a k e . That was our e n t i r e r e p o r t . We 
gave i t t o him a t f i v e i n the morning a f t e r we had chewed 
around w i t h the damn t h i n g f o r hours. That was r i g h t . Then 
they i m m e d i a t e l y a r r a n g e d f o r G e n e r a l E. L. M. Burns who was 
then head of the Truce S u p e r v i s i o n O r g a n i z a t i o n and who had 
the h i g h c o n f i d e n c e of Mike Pearson. 
JK: And a l s o a Canadian. 
E p s t e i n : Of c o u r s e . He had the h i g h c o n f i d e n c e o f Mike Pearson. 
They i m m e d i a t e l y arranged b o t h w i t h the government and w i t h 
him t h a t he s h o u l d be t r a n s f e r r e d . He was a l r e a d y on the UN 
s t a f f . So, He was t r a n s f e r r e d from C h i e f o f S t a f f o f the 
Truce S u p e r v i s i o n O r g a n i z a t i o n t o C h i e f of S t a f f o f UNEF. He 
agree and w i t h i n a day o r so he was here and s t a r t e d w o r k i n g . 
He knew the k i n d o f f o r c e s you needed. He knew what they 
were, the l o g i s t i c s and e v e r y t h i n g . 
JK: When d i d they d e c i d e on the c o m p o s i t i o n of the f o r c e s ? 
E p s t e i n : Then they s t a r t e d on the c o m p o s i t i o n o f the f o r c e s . 
They im m e d i a t e l y o f f e r e d t o send a regiment. Whom do they 
choose? An o u t f i t c a l l e d The Queen's Own R i f l e s . That i s 
g o i n g back t o the Empire days. We had the H i g h l a n d e r s and 
the Queen's Own R i f l e s and the P r i n c e ' s P a t s . The E g y p t i a n s 
a b s o l u t e l y b l a n k l y r e f u s e d and i t took days t o o r g a n i z e t h a t . 
F i n a l l y they agreed t h a t Canada would s u p p l y the l o g i s t i c s . 
55 
JK: But not the a c t u a l t r o o p s . 
E p s t e i n : No t r o o p s . Then they l o o k e d around a t a l l the 
c o u n t r i e s t hey c o u l d t o f i n d t r o o p s . They can always count 
on the S c a n d i n a v i a n s and the Canadians. We had what came t o 
be known as the Scandia-Canadian a l l i a n c e , p a r t i c u l a r l y 
Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Canada. 
JK: There was a l s o a d e c i s i o n t h a t t h e r e would be no permanent 
members o f the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l r e p r e s e n t e d i n the f o r c e s . 
E p s t e i n : That's r i g h t and b o t h the R u s s i a n s and the Americans 
p r e f e r r e d t h a t , p a r t i c u l a r l y w i t h the French and the B r i t i s h 
on the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l . N e i t h e r one t r u s t the o t h e r so, i t 
was agreed t h a t they would have the s m a l l c o u n t r i e s . They 
d i d have some S c a n d i n a v i a n s . That's a l l i n the r e c o r d s . C h i 
would know much more about t h a t because he was the Deputy 
S e c r e t a r y o f the C o u n c i l . He would know more than U r q u h a r t . 
I n h i s book Urquhart wrote a note o f thanks t o me because I 
b r i e f e d him on a l l the disarmament m a t e r i a l which he d i d n ' t 
know and which I d i d know. C h i , I'm sure, b r i e f e d him on the 
Suez C a n a l . Then G a r c i a - R o b l e s was put i n charge of the Suez 
o p e r a t i o n , c l e a n i n g the C a n a l . He was i n charge of the whole 
Suez S e c r e t a r i a t i n C a i r o . He i s the same f e l l o w who was the 
S e c r e t a r y of UNSCOP. He was put i n charge o f the whole UN 
o p e r a t i o n i n C a i r o . 
JK: You mentioned t h a t the Ge n e r a l Assembly had c a l l e d f o r the 
56 
c e a s e - f i r e . 
E p s t e i n : The c e a s e - f i r e and UNEF under the U n i t i n g f o r Peace 
R e s o l u t i o n . The R u s s i a n s had always s a i d t h a t the U n i t i n g 
f o r Peace R e s o l u t i o n was a b s o l u t e l y i l l e g a l and c o n t r a r y t o 
the C h a r t e r and so does K e l s o n , the a u t h o r of t h a t b i g book 
on the law o f the U n i t e d N a t i o n s . But t h i s time they went 
a l o n g . F i r s t , you c o u l d t r a n s f e r by a v o t e of seven members 
from the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l t o the Assembly and c a l l a s p e c i a l 
s e s s i o n . 
JK: That was c o n s i d e r e d a m a t t e r of p r o c e d u r e . 
E p s t e i n : Yes, but then they a l s o agreed t h a t the G e n e r a l 
Assembly c o u l d d e a l w i t h the m a t t e r because no a c t i o n was 
p o s s i b l e i n the S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l . The R u s s i a n s , t h e r e f o r e , 
bought the whole U n i t i n g f o r Peace procedure under the Suez 
C r i s i s . 
JK: Was t h i s the f i r s t time t h a t t h i s had been implemented? 
E p s t e i n : Yes, they had t r i e d o t h e r t h i n g s . There was a l i t t l e 
assembly t h a t they had t r i e d t o s e t up. There was a peace 
o b s e r v a t i o n group. There was a c o l l e c t i v e measures committee 
t h a t was s e t up and I was the chairman of t h a t committee. 
They d i d n ' t do much. They would meet f o r m a l l y but, t hey 
d i d n ' t do much. The R u s s i a n s b o y c o t t e d a l l o f them s a y i n g i t 
was a l l i l l e g a l under the U n i t i n g f o r Peace R e s o l u t i o n . But 
here, w i t h o u t s a y i n g i t was i l l e g a l , they went a l o n g . They 
wanted t o get the I s r a e l i s and, even more so, the B r i t i s h and 
57 
the French o u t . 
Then George Ivan Smith was head of our DPI. He had an 
e x c e l l e n t c o n t a c t w i t h a chap i n England by the name of C l a r k 
who was the spokesman and p u b l i c r e l a t i o n s man f o r the 
F o r e i g n O f f i c e . Hammarskjold got e x c e l l e n t i n f o r m a t i o n from 
C l a r k through Ivan Smith about what was g o i n g on i n England 
i n the F o r e i g n O f f i c e and P a r l i a m e n t and elsewhere. That was 
a b i g h e l p t o him. I don't know i f i t i s even mentioned i n 
B r i a n U r q u h a r t ' s book. Hammarskjold took t h i s as a p e r s o n a l 
a f f r o n t because he had r e l i e d so much on Pearson Dixon. They 
were the ones who were the i n t e l l i g e n t o l d - t i m e r s . They 
weren't l i k e the b r a s h new Americans who a t the end of the 
war d i d n ' t have much e x p e r t i s e . There was tremendous 
p r e s s u r e from the Americans on the B r i t i s h and the French. 
They r e a l l y t h r e a t e n e d the B r i t i s h w i t h e v e r y t h i n g under the 
sun, l e t t i n g the pound go a l l t o h e l l , c u t t i n g o f f o i l , e t c . 
They r e a l l y t h r e a t e n e d them. The B r i t i s h j u s t had t o cave 
i n . I t damn near k i l l e d Eden. He had t o r e s i g n . 
JK: The S o v i e t s had made a p r o p o s a l I u n d e r s t a n d s u g g e s t i n g t h a t 
the S o v i e t s and the US s u p p l y the E g y p t i a n s w i t h arms i f the 
B r i t i s h and French d i d n ' t withdraw. 
E p s t e i n : I remember v a g u e l y about t h a t but, I wasn't d i r e c t l y 
i n v o l v e d . The Americans t u r n e d i t down. They d i d n ' t want 
the R u s s i a n s i n i t a t a l l . John F o s t e r D u l l e s was v e r y c o o l 
a t f i r s t t o Mike Pearson's p r o p o s a l , t o o , the same as 
58 
Hammarskjold, s a y i n g t h a t i t ' s not i n the C h a r t e r . But once 
Pearson had g o t t e n the Canadian a u t h o r i z a t i o n t o p r o v i d e 
t r o o p s he went a l l out, t o o . The Americans and the R u s s i a n s 
worked t o g e t h e r which made i t good and easy f o r Hammarskjold. 
I t made i t tough on the B r i t i s h and the French. I t made i t 
tough f o r the I s r a e l i s t o s t a y . The Americans put a l o t of 
p r e s s u r e on Ben G u r i o n t o p u l l out o f the S i n a i . 
I was a t a p a r t y one n i g h t i n c l u d i n g G e o f f r e y Murray, 
p r o b a b l y C h i , and one o r two o t h e r s . I had heard from the 
I s r a e l i s t h a t they had agreed t o p u l l out from the S i n a i . I 
s a i d t h i s t o Geoff Murray and he s a i d , "Damn." He was 
f u r i o u s . I s a i d , "What are you so f u r i o u s about?" He s a i d , 
"We wanted t o get UNEF f o r c e s on b o t h s i d e s o f the bo r d e r , on 
the I s r a e l i s i d e and on the E g y p t i a n s i d e . " One o f the 
reasons t h a t the I s r a e l i s had agreed t o p u l l out was t h a t 
t hey d i d n ' t want UNEF t r o o p s on t h e i r t e r r i t o r y . They c o u l d 
s t a y i n the S i n a i j u s t on the o t h e r s i d e b ut, they d i d n ' t 
want them on t h e i r t e r r i t o r y . R e c o g n i z i n g t h a t t h a t might 
happen, they u n i l a t e r a l l y took a d e c i s i o n t o p u l l out of the 
S i n a i and, t h e r e f o r e , they had no reason t o have t r o o p s on 
t h e i r t e r r i t o r y . Geoff Murray was f u r i o u s because he wanted 
t o have t r o o p s on b o t h s i d e s o f the f r o n t i e r . That's what 
they were w o r k i n g f o r . They would have g o t t e n i t passed the 
S e c u r i t y C o u n c i l but, once the I s r a e l i t r o o p s had p u l l e d out 
and gone back t o t h e i r own b o r d e r they had no grounds f o r 
59 
a s k i n g f o r f o r c e s on b o t h s i d e s . Those are the p e r s o n a l 
t h i n g s I remember. 
JK: So, the I s r a e l i s were a g r e e a b l e t o the Emergency Force i d e a ? 
E p s t e i n : They were i n cahoots w i t h the B r i t i s h and the French. 
A f t e r i t was c l e a r t h a t the B r i t i s h and the French were 
c l e a r i n g out they were the l a s t ones l e f t . Eisenhower was 
p u t t i n g a l o t o f p r e s s u r e on Ben G u r i o n . I heard t h i s a l s o 
from the I s r a e l i s . Golda M e i r came over . She was F o r e i g n 
M i n i s t e r a t the t i m e . Lyndon Johnson was l e a d e r of the 
Senate and a member of the American d e l e g a t i o n . He was 
n a t u r a l l y much more p r o - I s r a e l than the o t h e r s because the 
Senate and the Congressmen have always been more p r o - I s r a e l 
t han the o f f i c i a l s . There was an American, Loy Henderson, 
d u r i n g the UNSCOP days who was i n charge of the M i d d l e East 
and he was an out and out p r o - A r a b i s t . He and H a r o l d B e a l y , 
the B r i t i s h , were out and out pro-Arab. That's why they 
a p p o i n t e d H e r s c h e l Johnson. And Truman a p p o i n t e d a g e n e r a l 
t o watch t o see t h a t the S t a t e Department wasn't undermining 
UNSCOP and i n t e r f e r i n g w i t h h i s o r d e r s . Warren A u s t i n was 
the UN ambassador, but H e r s c h e l Johnson was brought i n . The 
B r i t i s h F o r e i g n O f f i c e was always pro-Arab. The American 
S t a t e Department always took the l e a d from the B r i t i s h i n 
those days. They were t u r n i n g out t o be pro-Arab and t h a t i s 
why they went a l o n g w i t h t h a t r e s o l u t i o n t h r e a t e n i n g 
s a n c t i o n s a g a i n s t I s r a e l i n 1948. 
60 
Eisenhower put a l o t of p r e s s u r e on Ben G u r i o n and Abba Eban 
t o p u l l out o f the S i n a i and the f i n a l t h i n g t h a t made them 
p u l l out was t h a t they would be s t a t i o n i n g UNEF t r o o p s on 
b o t h s i d e s of the b o r d e r . They were damned i f they were 
g o i n g t o have anymore UN f o r c e s i n I s r a e l w a t c h i n g t h e i r 
e v e r y a c t i o n . They found the Truce S u p e r v i s i o n people a t the 
government house a damn nu i s a n c e a t t i m e s . W e l l , t h a t ' s what 
I know about the Suez. I t i s n ' t much but, t h e r e are a few 
i n t e r e s t i n g p o i n t s . 
JK: Thank you v e r y much. 
61