NON-CIRCii;. ATifvf; i N uwr-
PROFESSOR DAVID APTER  
YALE UNIVERSITY  
FEBRUARY 27. 1991  
INTERVIEWER: SUTTERLIN 
TABLE OF CONTENTS 
4 19S 
YUN TAPE 
i . The Congo 
C o n d i t i o n s before Independence 
Leading P e r s o n a l i t i e s 
Conor C r u i s e O'Brien 
American A f r i c a n P o l i c y 
1-2, 8-9, 17-19 
2-7, 9-13 
14-16 
19-22 
I I . Ghana 
V o l t a Development P l a n 
Robert Gardiner 
22-24 
24-25 
YUN TAPE  
PROFESSOR DAVID APTER  
YALE UNIVERSITY  
FEBRUARY 27. 1991  
INTERVIEWER; SUTTERLIN 
JSS P r o f e s s o r Apter, I want f i r s t t o express a p p r e c i a t i o n f o r 
your w i l l i n g n e s s t o p a r t i c i p a t e i n t h i s Yale o r a l h i s t o r y 
p r o j e c t on the U n i t e d Nations. And, i f I might, I would 
l i k e f i r s t t o ask you t o i n d i c a t e your connection w i t h the 
Congo. What were you doing i n the Congo d u r i n g the p e r i o d 
of the c r i s i s t h e r e i n the '60s. 
DA I had made s e v e r a l t r i p s t o the Congo under v a r i o u s 
a u s p i c e s , mainly t o i n t e r v i e w people. My f i r s t i n t e r e s t was 
t o c o n t r a s t the slow pace of e v o l u t i o n towards p o l i t i c a l 
autonomy i n the Congo as compared w i t h c o u n t r i e s I had been 
working w i t h and i n which I was i n t e r e s t e d , mainly Ghana, 
N i g e r i a , Uganda, Senegal, Cote d ' l v o i r e namely. I a l s o 
spent some time i n Kenya and Tanzania. My f i r s t f i e l d work 
had been i n Ghana, ( o r i g i n a l l y Gold Coast). I was i n t e r e s t 
i n the problem of the t r a n s i t i o n from dependence t o 
independence v i a mass n a t i o n a l i s t movements i n which the 
procedure i n e f f e c t was t o channel n a t i o n a l i s m and the 
m o b i l i z a t i o n of support i n t o i n c r e a s i n g l y enlarged and more 
r e p r e s e n t a t i v e bodies, by means of v o t i n g and e l e c t o r a l 
methods. The expansion of the f r a n c h i s e , and the 
t r a n s f o r m a t i o n of l e g i s l a t i v e bodies from nonrepresentative 
t o i n c r e a s i n g l y r e p r e s e n t a t i v e , and then e s s e n t i a l l y * 
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p a r l i a m e n t a r y bodies w i t h c a b i n e t r e s p o n s i b i l i t y , 
p a r l i a m e n t a r y a c c o u n t a b i l i t y , and e f f e c t i v e i n t e r n a l s e l f 
government marked the l a s t step before power was f i n a l l y 
t r a n s f e r r e d . And t h a t was one way or another the procedure 
i n v i r t u a l l y a l l B r i t i s h A f r i c a n c o u n t r i e s w i t h i n the 
commonwealth framework. Something very d i f f e r e n t , perhaps 
l e s s e f f e c t i v e l y , was f o l l o w e d i n French A f r i c a . But i n 
both cases the process was accompanied by the c l e a r 
r e c o g n i t i o n t h a t c r u c i a l t o success was the of 
people w i t h d i v e r s e i n t e r e s t s , on the one hand, and 
education and e s p e c i a l l y the expansion of h i g h e r education. 
One of the t h i n g s t h a t s t r u c k me i n the Congo was the 
attempt t o prevent n a t i o n a l i s m by h o l d i n g back on any k i n d 
of h i g h e r education. Indeed education was minimized, 
although the B e l g i a n a u t h o r i t i e s d i d v a r y the extent of 
e d u c a t i o n a l reform a c c o r d i n g t o d i f f e r e n t p r ovinces on the 
t h e o r y t h a t you had t o r a i s e up the l e v e l of a whole group 
of people w i t h i n a p r o v i n c e or e t h n i c group r a t h e r not 
piecemeal. But t h e r e was v e r y l i t t l e p r ogress. There were 
h a r d l y any s k i l l e d or t r a i n e d people, v e r y few d o c t o r s , and 
so on. So one of my more p a r t i c u l a r i n t e r e s t s was t o see 
who were the Conglese n a t i o n a l i s t l e a d e r s . I wanted t o meet 
and i n t e r v i e w them before independence, comparing them w i t h 
t h e i r c o u n t e r p a r t s i n French speaking and E n g l i s h speaking 
A f r i c a . I a l s o t r i e d t o assess how t h i s e d u c a t i o n a l l a c k , 
the fundamental u n a v a i l a b i l i t y of A f r i c a n s s k i l l e d enough to 
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p a r t i c i p a t e i n e f f e c t i v e p o l i t i c a l and a d m i n i s t r a t i v e l i f e , 
was l i k e l y t o a f f e c t what was l i k e l y t o happen. 
My l a s t v i s i t was f o r about e i g h t weeks. I was there 
up u n t i l the day of independence. I then s l i p p e d over the 
border between the Katanga and Uganda because I expected 
p r e t t y much of a blood bath. 
JSS So i n t h i s p e r i o d then you were t h e r e before independence. 
Were you able t o meet a number of the n a t i o n a l i s t leaders? 
DA Yes, I met?I'm a l i t t l e hazy about names a t t h i s p o i n t ? I 
met Lumumba s e v e r a l times and i n t e r v i e w e d him. I met 
Tshombe and I met Kasavubu, and s e v e r a l o t h e r s from the 
c e n t r a l area. I never met Gazinga whom I wanted very much 
t o meet but who had been more or l e s s s e a l e d o f f i n eastern 
Congo. 
JSS Could you g i v e me your impressions, t o begin w i t h , w i t h Mr. 
Lumumba at t h a t p e r i o d before he became Prime M i n i s t e r ? 
DA Yes, I was s u r p r i s e d by him. I knew something about h i s 
background of course, he had been a p o s t a l c l e r k and so on, 
but I expected somehow a more accomplished p e r s o n a l i t y . I f 
he was a diamond i t was c e r t a i n l y i n the rough, and I wasn't 
r e a l l y prepared a l s o f o r how l i m i t e d he seemed t o be. He 
was e x p l o s i v e . H i s language came out i n s h o r t e x p l o s i v e 
b u r s t s . He spoke i n slogans. He seemed more or l e s s 
uncomprehending of the questions asked him. He p a i d no 
a t t e n t i o n t o them u n t i l some word t r i g g e r e d a response t h a t 
he wanted t o make. So i t was i m p o s s i b l e t o have the k i n d of 
normal c o n v e r s a t i o n you would expect i n i n t e r v i e w i n g w i t h 
p o l i t i c a l l e a d e r s . I t was as i f t h e r e was something 
mechanical about him as a p e r s o n a l i t y , and p h y s i c a l l y too. 
He s o r t o f t w i t c h e d w i t h i n t e n s i t y and nervousness. 
Combined w i t h an e x p l o s i v e q u a l i t y , an i n a b i l i t y t o s i t 
s t i l l , I found him s u r p r i s i n g . I never experienced t h a t i n 
d e a l i n g w i t h any other s e r i o u s p o l i t i c a l f i g u r e . He a l s o 
seemed t o be i l l a t ease he wasn't t o t a l l y f a m i l i a r 
w i t h the surroundings. So I would say he was a person 
l a c k i n g i n what might be c a l l e d the s o c i a l s k i l l s of 
p o l i t i c s . Nevertheless he had a c e r t a i n f e r o c i t y i n the way 
he spoke, and a det e r m i n a t i o n . I f what came out were 
slogans the slogans themselves were p e r f e c t l y 
comprehensible. One had the f e e l i n g t h a t t h i s was an 
idealogue without a r e a l i d e o l o g y . P i e c e s of an ideolo g y 
had been programmed i n t o him and perhaps he thought i n such 
terms, a t l e a s t when he was d e a l i n g i n French w i t h somebody 
from o u t s i d e h i s own general environment. I remember I was 
amazed by him. I wouldn't c a l l our d i s c u s s i o n a r e a l 
i n t e r v i e w . I was q u i t e f a s c i n a t e d by him as a p e r s o n a l i t y 
and wondered what he would be l i k e when he had t o a c t u a l l y 
d e a l w i t h concrete problems. I couldn't imagine him 
a c t u a l l y s i t t i n g down and having the pa t i e n c e t o t h i n k 
through something as d i s t i n c t from being a k i n d of 
immediately r e a c t i v e p o l i t i c a l l e a d e r . 
JSS That was e x a c t l y my next q u e s t i o n . I n t a l k i n g t o him d i d 
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you get any sense t h a t he had any understanding of the r o l e 
t h a t l a y ahead f o r him i n t h i s new country? 
DA I t ' s hard t o say. I t wasn't a r e a l i n t e r v i e w , even though 
i t went on f o r some time. I guess my r e c o l l e c t i o n i s t h a t 
i t b r i n g s up a statement people used t o make i n Uganda when 
I would ask p o l i t i c i a n s longer q u e s t i o n s . They would say 
"you don't cut up a cow u n t i l you k i l l i t . " I have the 
f e e l i n g t h a t he wasn't t h i n k i n g very f a r ahead. H i s 
immediate u n i v e r s e c o n s i s t e d of enemies i n c l u d i n g the 
B e l g i a n s . I n f a c t he had enemies everywhere i n the Congo. 
H i s e s s e n t i a l q u a l i t y was an a b i l i t y t o a t t r a c t people t o 
him by h i s dynamic, nervous, tense p e r s o n a l i t y . He l o o k s , 
t h i n , angular, quick, angry, b r i s t l y . But he a l s o caught 
everybody o f f guard. He would c a t c h them out. There was a 
c e r t a i n u n p r e d i c t a b i l i t y about him. I would say t h a t h i s 
preoccupation wasn't r e a l l y w i t h what would happen 
aft e r w a r d s , except i n some very g e n e r a l , not t e r r i b l y 
comprehending, way. I don't even suppose he had a good 
conception o f what the whole country was l i k e . 
JSS And going on from the f u t u r e Prime M i n i s t e r t o the f u t u r e 
P r e s i d e n t , Mr. Kasavubu, what was your impression of him? 
DA A t o t a l l y d i f f e r e n t p e r s o n a l i t y . P h y s i c a l l y they were 
e n t i r e l y d i f f e r e n t . Where Lumumba was tense and nervous, as 
I r e c a l l q u i t e t a l l , v e r y t h i n , angular f a c e , Kasavubu was 
s h o r t , heavy, p l a c i d . One had the sense he was v e r y wise, 
v e r y p a t i e n t . He was someone who had come up from the 
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i n s i d e of A f r i c a n e t h n i c p o l i t i c s w i t h a very sure sense of 
what the i n g r e d i e n t s were, a t l e a s t i n terms of the Congo. 
He was more p a r o c h i a l i n the sense of e t h n i c p o l i t i c s but 
more c o n v e n t i o n a l as a p o l i t i c i a n than Lumumba. Of course 
e t h n i c d i v i s i o n s were not only very very s t r o n g and 
r e g i o n a l l y d i f f e r e n t i a t e d f o r a d m i n i s t r a t i v e purposes. As 
al r e a d y suggested under the B e l g i a n some e t h n i c groups had 
been pushed ahead much f a s t e r than others so t h a t you had a 
l a r g e r component of educated people i n one group than you 
would w i t h another. This i n t r o d u c e d i n t o an a l r e a d y 
g e n e r a l l y inward l o o k i n g s e t of communities the k i n d of 
r e s i s t a n c e and h o s t i l i t y between e t h n i c groups which 
r e s u l t e d i n e x p l o s i v e c o n f l i c t of independence. As I say 
t h i s was p a r t o f our o r i g i n a l design t o keep a k i n d of 
balance w i t h i n communities r a t h e r than between them, r a t h e r 
than simply d i v i d e and r u l e . I t would be too easy t o c a l l 
i t j u s t a d i v i d e and conquer k i n d of t a c t i c . But i t was 
p a r t of a long term B e l g i a n s t r a t e g y of p r e v e n t i n g unrest by 
p r o v i d i n g m u l t i p l e programs i n medical f a c i l i t i e s , 
e d u c ation, housing, road i n f r a s t r u c t u r e i n a way f a v o r i n g 
one p r o v i n c e and one e t h n i c group a g a i n s t another. So w i t h 
Kasavubu, one had the sense of h i s easy w i t h i n h i s own 
e t h n i c group, which i n c l u d e d what was then L e o p o l d v i l l e . He 
was t o t a l l y i n command of the s i t u a t i o n and was a c h i e f . 
JSS And the sense o f h o s t i l i t y toward the B e l g i a n s or other 
f o r e i g n e r s d i d not come through i n case of Kasavubu the way 
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i t d i d w i t h Lumumba? 
DA No, not a t a l l . My f e e l i n g was t h a t he knew how t o work 
w i t h them and he c o u l d take them or leave them, he wasn't 
i n t i m i d a t e d by them. He was h i s own person. 
JSS Did you meet Mobutu a t t h a t p o i n t ? 
DA No, I never met Mobutu. 
JSS Because he was more or l e s s i n the background s t i l l , then, 
i n t he Army. Going on then t o a remarkable f i g u r e , I t h i n k . 
How would you c h a r a c t e r i z e him? 
DA W e l l , Tshombe, I d i d n ' t have much chance t o t a l k t o him. I 
heard him g i v e a speech and I was in t r o d u c e d t o him 
afterwards and had a b i t of a chat w i t h him. Tshombe was 
the b e s t p o l i t i c i a n i n the p r a c t i c a l sense of the term. 
Although w i t h h i s own group he was j u s t as l o c a l as any of 
the o t h e r s , he was very p o l i s h e d as a speaker. He was 
s m a l l , a b i t rotund - not q u i t e as Buddha - l i k e as 
Kasavubu. He was q u i t e charming, easy t o t a l k t o . He was 
probably the most Europeanized. He knew how t o d e a l w i t h 
Union M i n i e r e . He knew how t o d e a l w i t h and l i k e d 
Europeans. He got along w e l l w i t h the Katangese 
a d m i n i s t r a t i o n . One had the sense of h i s s o c i a l and 
p o l i t i c a l accomplishment, although, by the time I met him, 
he was a l r e a d y regarded as a r e a c t i o n a r y by v i r t u a l l y a l l 
the o t h e r p o l i t i c a l l e a d e r s . Nevertheless he was s e l f 
assured, a cosmopolitan man of the world, even though t h a t 
w o r l d , i n f a c t , was rooted i n Katanga which was where I met 
him. Of course a t the time Katanga was f u l l of Europeans. 
I t was i n t h a t sense very Europeanized. There was some of 
the b e s t academic resear c h f a c i l i t i e s i n the country 
There was a sense i n which, although f a r from the cent e r , i t 
was a ce n t e r o f i t s own. 
JSS Now going i n a t t h i s p o i n t and t a l k i n g t o a good many of the 
people i n Katanga and the r e s t of the Congo you were 
approaching i t i n an a n a l y t i c a l p r o s p e c t i v e so t o speak, as 
t o the a d m i n i s t r a t i v e c a p a c i t y and a d m i n i s t r a t i v e 
procedures. Would you have assessed the country as ready 
f o r t r a n s i t i o n t o independence at t h a t p o i n t ? Or d i d you 
f i n d i t t o t a l l y unprepared? 
DA W e l l , I f u l l y expected i t t o be a shambles and s a i d so at 
the time. That's why I l e f t . I expected i t t o explode. 
There are many other p o l i t i c a l l e a d e r s whom I int e r v i e w e d 
and whose names I have f o r g o t t e n . I would have t o go back 
over my notes. But I found them concerned f o r t h e i r own 
s k i n s , t h e i r connections t o e t h n i c groups i n d i f f e r e n t 
p r o v i n c e s , and few w i t h a broad p e r s p e c t i v e . An exception I 
remember who l a t e r went t o St . Antony's C o l l e g e at Oxford 
when I was t h e r e was Thomas Kanza. He was ve r y b r i g h t and 
s o p h i s t i c a t e d but th e r e were not many o t h e r s . No, I thought 
the country was i n no way ready f o r independence. While the 
Be l g i a n s d i d not p u l l a De Gau l l e - i n - G u i n e a k i n d of t h i n g 
(where a t independence v i r t u a l l y e v e r y t h i n g was p u l l e d out _ 
the country i n c l u d i n g a l l k i n d s of equipment. But t h e i r 
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s t r a t e g y was t o speed up the t r a n s i t i o n so f a s t t h a t they 
would i n e f f e c t i n h e r i t the post-independence p i e c e s . In a 
sense t h a t i s e x a c t l y what happened. Other than t h a t they 
made no r e a l p r e p a r a t o r y e f f o r t . I t h i n k everybody w i t h any 
sense of r e s p o n s i b i l i t y threw up hands. Most Belgians 
were r e a l l y v e r y anxious. Everyone a n t i c i p a t e d a d i s a s t e r . 
But the was a l s o anxious t o avoid r e s p o n s i b i l i t y f o r 
t h a t . By not i n any way impeding the t r a n s i t i o n i n e f f e c t 
they l e t the c h i p s f a l l where they may. 
I d i d t a l k t o some s e n i o r government o f f i c i a l s 
i n c l u d i n g the Governor General of Ruanda and they a l l , 
almost t o a man, deplored the B r u s s e l s p o l i c y . They found 
i t extremely i r r e s p o n s i b l e . A l l expected a bloodbath. 
JSS So t h a t going i n t o i t as the U n i t e d Nations d i d i t c o u l d 
have been a n t i c i p a t e d t h a t t h e r e was going t o be grave 
d i f f i c u l t i e s ? 
DA Yes, i n f a c t I t h i n k I wrote t h a t f o r A f r i c a Report or 
something l i k e t h a t w h i l e I was s t i l l t h e r e i n a n t i c i p a t i o n 
of what happened. 
JSS And the l e v e l of education was d e p l o r a b l e as I understand 
i t . Did you f i n d t h a t t o be t r u e throughout your contacts? 
DA Yes, one d i d f i n d , of course, a few A f r i c a n medical 
t e c h n i c i a n s , s c h o o l t e a c h e r s , e t c . But these too were 
B e l g i a n s . They were s t i l l t h e r e and had t o do t h e i r j o bs. 
There was a l s o a c e r t a i n competence. I d i d n ' t f i n d general 
incompetence. Rather t h e r e was a very low l e v e l of 
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A f r i c a n i z a t i o n i n these r e q u i r e d p o s i t i o n s of competence. 
Where A f r i c a n s were i n p l a c e they seemed t o be reasonably 
p r o f i c i e n t . Sometimes more p r o f i c i e n t than t h e i r E n g l i s h 
speaking or French speaking A f r i c a n c o u n t e r p a r t s . I 
t h i n k where there was primary education was done 
reasonably w e l l . 
JSS D i d you meet the man who became the I n t e r i o r M i n i s t e r of 
Katanga, Mr. Munongo? 
DA Yes, as I I had d i n n e r w i t h him f o l l o w i n g d r i n k s f i r s t 
on the veranda of h i s very n i c e house. I was i n the company 
of a w e l l known a n t h r o p o l o g i s t , Jacques Macquet, author of 
The Premis of I n e q u a l i t y i n Rowanda. I t was through him 
t h a t I was taken on t h i s t r i p t o i n t e r v i e w people. The way 
I met Godefroid Munongo was r a t h e r amusing. We were d r i v i n g 
i n a b i g American c a r and as we entered h i s t e r r i t o r y the 
c a r got a b s o l u t e l y mired i n the mud. Of course we were on 
our way t o see him. 
JSS Was t h i s before or a f t e r independence? 
DA T h i s was before. C h i e f Munongo simply ordered a l a r g e group 
of men t o come and they l i t e r a l l y l i f t e d the c a r out of the 
mud. We were then i n v i t e d i n f o r a v e r y g r a c i o u s , and I 
would say, t o t a l l y c y n i c a l c o n v e r s a t i o n . As I remember the 
c o n v e r s a t i o n , I had t h i s f e e l i n g , s i n c e I was f a i r l y young, 
t h a t Godefroid Munongo was j u s t simply amused by us. But he 
had h i g h regard f o r Jaques Macquet. There were s e v e r a l 
B e l g i a n a d m i n i s t r a t o r s around, but Munongo was v e r y much at 
10 
the c e n t e r of t h i n g s . He and the a d m i n i s t r a t o r s had a k i n d 
o f j o k i n g r e l a t i o n s h i p . He was v e r y r e l a x e d . There was no 
concern w i t h what today i s c a l l e d "otherness." A l l p a r t of 
t h e same o r g a n i z a t i o n . Each had h i s p a r t t o p l a y . 
JSS He a l s o , I b e l i e v e , was the c h i e f of a t r i b e . 
DA Oh yes, i t was h i s f o l l o w e r s who p u l l e d us out of the mud. 
JSS He has been por t r a y e d i n some of the w r i t i n g s on the Katanga 
as a v e r y c r u e l person, a very c r u e l man, capable of a l l 
s o r t s of crimes. Did you get any i n k l i n g of t h a t ? 
DA Not r e a l l y . I would have s a i d t h a t he had an enormous sense 
of power and t h a t he would do anything necessary, or 
a n y t h i n g w i t h i n h i s power t h a t he regarded t o be necessary. 
He gave the impression of being e x c e p t i o n a l l y autonomous as 
a p e r s o n a l i t y . He was very much the c e n t e r p i e c e . I 
wouldn't say t h a t the a d m i n i s t r a t o r s f e l t i n f e r i o r t o him, 
but I had the f e e l i n g t h a t he c o u l d have t r e a t e d them as i f 
they were sm a l l boys i f he had chosen t o do i t . He was 
q u i t e a f f a b l e and c o r r e c t and had a great sense of humor, a 
s a r d o n i c sense of humor. I c e r t a i n l y had the f e e l i n g t h a t 
he was accustomed t o the e x e r c i s e of power, and very much 
h i s own man. More than t h a t I r e a l l y c o u l d n ' t say. 
JSS And on the c o n s e r v a t i v e s i d e ? 
DA Oh yes, I would say more than c o n s e r v a t i v e , r e a c t i n g i n the 
r e a l sense of the term. He d i d n ' t t h i n k the l o c a l 
p o l i t i c i a n s were worth a damn. He had a b s o l u t e contempt f o r 
them. He had r e s p e c t f o r what he considered h i m s e l f t o be 
p a r t o f , t he B e l g i a n a d m i n i s t r a t i o n . He r e a l l y c o u l d n ' t 
understand, indeed, I don't t h i n k he b e l i e v e d , t h a t the 
B e l g i a n s were paying much r e a l a t t e n t i o n t o these people who 
were n o t h i n g more than ' t r o u b l e makers'. 
JSS There have been suggestions l a t e r t h a t he was d i r e c t l y 
i n v o l v e d i n the f i n a l murder of Lumumba. In your 
connections d i d you hear anything about t h a t ? 
DA Yes. I heard t h a t not very long a f t e r the murder of Lumumba 
from s e v e r a l people. The person who should know about t h a t 
was w i t h us on t h a t occasion, Edouard B u s t i n . B u s t i n was 
making a study of the t r a n s i t i o n . He had good sources of 
i n f o r m a t i o n , both on the B e l g i a n s i d e and on A f r i c a n s i d e . 
JSS And they i n d i c a t e d t h a t t o t h e i r knowledge t h a t Munongo was 
d i r e c t l y i n v o l v e d i n . . . 
DA Yes, the i n f o r m a t i o n t h a t I got, and I t h i n k Conor C r u i s e 
O'Brien may have t o l d me t h i s , t h a t Munongo's men, working 
e i t h e r w i t h or under some k i n d of connection t o both the 
B e l g i a n p o l i c e and the CIA, t i p p e d o f f Munongo t h a t Lumumbo 
was going t o be i n h i s area. For a l i know i t was probably 
the same men who p u l l e d our car out of the mud who went t o 
work on him. I d i d hear one s t o r y t h a t Munongo h i m s e l f , 
p a r t i c i p a t e d i n the a c t u a l k i l l i n g . But whether t h i s i s 
t r u e o r not I have no idea. I wouldn't be s u r p r i s e d . 
JSS He was probably capable of doing i t . Were t h e r e other 
persons who made a p a r t i c u l a r impression on you i n t h i s 
p e r i o d b e f o r e the independence? 
12 
There was a ve r y i n t e r e s t i n g lawyer whose name was Reuben, 
who had decided t h a t he was going t o st a y on. He seemed t o 
be respected i n a c i r c l e of middle of the road A f r i c a n 
n a t i o n a l i s t s . I had dinner w i t h Reubens i n h i s area 
a b s o l u t e l y superb South A f r i c a n Dutch s t y l e white washed 
house, ve r y b e a u t i f u l , very l a r g e . I t h i n k he b e l i e v e d he 
c o u l d become a k i n d of s e n i o r p o l i t i c i a n a d v i s o r , a man of 
good w i l l , who co u l d become more than an in t e r m e d i a r y 
but would accept the r e s p o n s i b i l i t y of e l e c t i v e o f f i c e as a 
Z a i r i a n . I understand he d i d n ' t l a s t very l o n g . He had a 
l o t of wisdom, had a l o t of understanding about the 
d i f f e r e n t k i n d s of n a t i o n a l i s m which i n the context of the 
time some people put down as k i n d of simple-minded 
t r i b a l i s m . He recognized t h a t t h e r e was a gr e a t d e a l more 
t o i t than t h a t . Sometimes what was going or was a k i n d of 
e t h n i c c l a s s s t r u g g l e between the groups which had been h e l d 
back and others which had been advanced. There were 
p a r t i c u l a r l y important d i f f e r e n c e s between those i n r u r a l 
areas and those who had become much more i n d u s t r i a l i z e d . In 
Katanga w i t h a l a r g e mining p o p u l a t i o n , t h i s was the 
begin n i n g o f an i n d u s t r i a l l a b o r f o r c e . I n gen e r a l people's 
a t t i t u d e s were much more complicated than i t appeared. For 
example Flemish miners i n the Katanga whose r e p u t a t i o n was 
t h a t they were the most v i o l e n t l y a n t i - A f r i c a n , because they 
were miners developed a k i n d of s o l i d a r i t y w i t h A f r i c a n 
miners. T h i s i n c l i n e d them t o be more c l o s e and i n t i m a t e 
13 
w i t h A f r i c a n s a t every l e v e l , i n terms of s o c i a l l i f e , 
as w e l l as economic a c t i v i t i e s . Another t h i n g t h a t was 
s t a r t l i n g was the extreme seg r e g a t i o n . From L e o p o l d v i l l e 
a l l the way down t o E l i z a b e t h v i l l e , l a c i t e A f r i c a i n e , was 
another wo r l d and Europeans weren't unsafe going i n there 
but they d i d not, i n f a c t , penetrate t h a t world. Urban l i f e 
was i n s u l a t e d a g a i n s t Europeans. 
JSS You mentioned Conor C r u i s e O'Brien who l a t e r became the 
U n i t e d Nations R e p r e s e n t a t i v e i n E l i z a b e t h v i l l e . Did you 
know him be f o r e he went t o the Congo, or d i d you know him 
a f t e r t h a t ? 
DA I t i s hard t o remember. I t h i n k I knew him a f t e r t h a t . 
Yes, a f t e r t h a t . 
JSS Could you g i v e your impression of Conor C r u i s e O'Brien? As 
you no doubt know, h i s s t a y i n E l i z a b e t h v i l l e was somewhat 
c o n t r o v e r s i a l and d i f f e r e n t t h i n g s have been w r i t t e n , 
i n c l u d i n g t h i n g s t h a t he has w r i t t e n . How would you 
c h a r a c t e r i z e Conor C r u i s e O'Brien? 
DA I t h i n k Conor i s mad, b r i l l i a n t , e x t r a o r d i n a r i l y b r i l l i a n t , 
a person of many d i s g u i s e s , and g u i s e s . He w r i t e s under 
s e v e r a l names. I f I may be excused of p u t t i n g i t t h i s way, 
he i s w o n d e r f u l l y I r i s h . He comes from a n a t i o n a l i s t " r o y a l 
f a m i l y , " as does h i s w i f e , and they summarize between the 
two of them a l l the c o m p l e x i t i e s and a m b i g u i t i e s of being 
the u n i v e r s a l i n t e l l e c t u a l , h i g h l y s o p h i s t i c a t e d , and a l s o 
deeply r o o t e d i n the I r i s h n a t i o n a l i s t circumstances through 
14 
which he tended t o i n t e r p r e t A f r i c a n independence. 
JSS Did you have o p p o r t u n i t i e s t o d i s c u s s the developments i n 
the Congo, i n p a r t i c u l a r l y i n the Katanga, w i t h him l a t e r ? 
DA Yes, but not t e r r i b l y much because by the time I got t o know 
him he was V i c e C h a n c e l l o r of the U n i v e r s i t y of Ghana and 
having h i s own b a t t l e s w i t h Kwame Nkrumah who wanted t o make 
i t more o f an i d e o l o g i c a l r a t h e r than an i n t e l l e c t u a l p l a c e . 
At t h i s p o i n t Conor C r u i s e O'Brien appeared v e r y much i n the 
r o l e of the t r a d i t i o n a l E n g l i s h academic defending academic 
freedom. T h i s was ve r y d i f f e r e n t from the r o l e he played i n 
the Congo. I t h i n k he i s a supreme manipulator, although I 
t h i n k he i s ve r y determined t o manipulate on the s i d e of 
" v i r t u e . " He a l s o , as a b r i l l i a n t i n t e l l e c t u a l , decided 
what indeed c o n s t i t u t e d v i r t u e . Some people might c a l l t h a t 
opportunism, but I don't t h i n k he f e l t t h a t t h i s was 
c o r r e c t . He was a r a d i c a l and a l i b e r a l i n the r e a l sense 
of the term, but not an ideologue. 
JSS A r a d i c a l l i b e r a l i s t would you say? 
DA Yes, a r a d i c a l l i b e r a l . R a d - l i b I t h i n k they used t o c a l l 
i t i n the o l d days. Very i d i o s y n c r a t i c , impatient w i t h any 
k i n d of bureaucracy, v e r y hard on the people who worked w i t h 
him, who c o u l d n e i t h e r keep up w i t h h i s i n t e l l e c t u a l l e a p s , 
h i s i n c o n s i s t e n c i e s as a p e r s o n a l i t y e t c . Of course he 
drank an enormous amount. He seemed t o b e l i e v e t h a t the 
more he drank the sharper he got and t h a t u n f o r t u n a t e l y 
wasn't always the case. He fought w i t h almost everybody, as 
15 
I r e c a l l , but he had a t h i n g about Lumumba. He r a t h e r l i k e d 
Lumumba, or I t h i n k he l i k e d the idea of Lumumba, t h a t there 
would be somebody who would come t o represent the cente r , a 
k i n d of r a d i c a l c e n t e r . No other f i g u r e was able t o shake 
o f f l o c a l i s m and e t h n i c i t y the way Lumumba cou l d . Lumumba 
j u s t d i d n ' t care about t h a t . Lumumba may have had a sm a l l 
t r i b a l f o l l o w i n g but t h a t wasn't the b a s i s of h i s support 
and I t h i n k t h a t ' s what appealed t o Conor C r u i s e O'Brien. 
JSS Yes, i n h i s w r i t i n g s he has p o r t r a y e d Lumumba i n t h a t sense 
and has more than suggested t h a t the murder of Lumumba was 
arranged by the CIA and t h a t i n t h i s Dag Hammarskjold had a 
c e r t a i n r o l e . My q u e s t i o n here i s i n your conv e r s a t i o n s 
l a t e r , d i d any of t h i s a n t i p a t h y t o Dag Hammarskjold come 
out? 
DA Yes, I t h i n k he thought t h a t Dag Hammarskjold was a s t u f f e d 
s h i r t . Conor r e a l l y d i d n ' t have a gr e a t r e s p e c t f o r the 
Un i t e d Nations. There were ve r y few people who d i d as I 
r e c a l l . While he was the r e p r e s e n t a t i v e of the Unit e d 
Nations, h i s experiences o n l y confirmed him i n h i s 
p r e j u d i c e s . Dag Hammarskjold seemed t o him t o be the 
p e r s o n i f i c a t i o n of the pious i n e p t m a n i p u l a t i v e pro-Western 
d e c e i t f u l f i g u r e , who because he was Swedish, seemed always 
t o escape the k i n d of judgments and e v a l u a t i o n s t h a t he 
deserved. 
JSS Conor C r u i s e O'Brien c e r t a i n l y d i d h i s p a r t t o make t h a t 
e v a l u a t i o n . Those are the ques t i o n s t h a t I had. Were there 
16 
any other thoughts t h a t come t o you t h a t you would l i k e t o 
r e c o r d concerning the impressions you gained at t h a t stage 
of the Congo? 
DA J u s t a few t h i n g s . One was the sense of the t e r r i b l e 
backwardness of the country not o n l y i n the Congo, but a l s o 
i n Ruwanda and Burundi, 
JSS Which were a l s o B e l g i a n administered. 
DA Yes, and upcountry one had the f e e l i n g of people r e a l l y up 
a g a i n s t i t . There was an e x t r a o r d i n a r y degree of 
o v e r p o p u l a t i o n . There was renewed c o n f l i c t between Watutsi 
and the Bahatu. And even a a Governor General of 
Ruwanda i n d i c a t e d t h a t t h e r e had been v i r t u a l l y no 
p r e p a r a t i o n f o r A f r i c a n i z a t i o n a t the l e v e l of l o c a l 
a d m i n i s t r a t i o n , i n c l u d i n g medical not t o speak of j u s t 
o r d i n a r y l o c a l government. Indeed t h e r e seemed t o be no 
p r e p a r a t i o n whatsoever f o r the change t h a t was about t o take 
p l a c e . The minute you got away from p l a c e s l i k e 
E l i z a b e t h v i l l e , or even w i t h i n E l i z a b e t h v i l l e i t s e l f , there 
was v i r t u a l l y no p r e p a r a t i o n f o r s e l f government. What 
th e r e was the d i c k e r i n g and b a r g a i n i n g amongst d i f f e r e n t 
A f r i c a n p o l i t i c i a n s and s e n i o r a d m i n i s t r a t o r s . There was 
one i n p a r t i c u l a r whose name I've f o r g o t t e n who was a very 
famous and a b r i l l i a n t B e l g i a n who, knew p e r f e c t l y w e l l what 
was going t o happen. He simply t r i e d t o put the best face 
on i t he c o u l d . T h i s man, I t h i n k , was second i n command of 
the process from L e o p o l d v i l l e . I had met him on a number of 
17 
occasions and t a l k e d w i t h him. He j u s t accepted what had 
now become i n e v i t a b l e as h i g h p o l i c y , but took the p o s i t i o n 
t h a t what the B e l g i a n s were doing i n terms of A f r i c a was not 
a q u e s t i o n of ideology about c o l o n i a l i s m or a n t i c o l o n i a l i s m , 
but a human phenomenon t h a t would produce a t e r r i b l e 
d i s a s t e r . I t h i n k everybody knew r i g h t throughout the 
system. Everybody had a f o r e t a s t e of doom, except on the 
American s i d e . The American s i d e , (I remember t a l k i n g t o 
Helen K i t c h e n about t h i s ) , j u s t assumed t h a t independence 
comes the way babies are born. I t a l l happens n a t u r a l l y . 
To be sure t h e r e might be some trauma a s s o c i a t e d w i t h the 
b i r t h . But a l l would be handled i n due course. There was 
no concern t h a t c o n f l i c t s , f e r o c i o u s ones, were i n c i p i e n t . 
(At the time t h e r e were very few American s c h o l a r s working 
i n Z a i r e . ) 
JSS I t i s i n t e r e s t i n g t h a t Hammarskjold seems t o have 
a n t i c i p a t e d r e a l t r o u b l e there and had sent Ralph Bunche, 
you no doubt know he was there f o r the independence but a l s o 
t o s t a y on beyond independence which he d i d a c t u a l l y and met 
w i t h the c a b i n e t i n i t s f i r s t meeting. 
DA I might j u s t add on one other note which doesn't have 
anything p a r t i c u l a r l y t o do w i t h the Congo. I knew S i r 
Andrew Cohen q u i t e w e l l , knew him i n Uganda, and we became 
f r i e n d s . I knew him when he was no lo n g e r governor of 
Uganda but had become the r e p r e s e n t a t i v e t o the U n i t e d 
N a t i o n s , I t h i n k , T r u s t e e s h i p C o u n c i l . So I used t o go t o 
18 

the UN q u i t e r e g u l a r l y which meant I got some sense of the 
i n t e r i o r workings of UN d e l e g a t i o n s . (The B r i t i s h would get 
c e r t a i n t h i n g s done through the I n d i a n d e l e g a t i o n . ) One sat 
i n on some of the t r a d e - o f f s and bargains being s t r u c k . S i r 
Andrew Cohen was a s o r t of Fabian s o c i a l i s t and had strong 
views and c o n v i c t i o n s about A f r i c a n n a t i o n a l i s m . He f e l t 
t h a t i t was p o s i t i v e r a t h e r than n e g a t i v e , u n l i k e many of 
h i s c o u n t e r p a r t s i n the C o l o n i a l O f f i c e . During Cohen's 
p e r i o d as Ambassador t o the T r u s t e e s h i p C o u n c i l I would go 
t h e r e q u i t e r e g u l a r l y and s a t w i t h the B r i t i s h d e l e g a t i o n . 
There was no one l i k e Cohen on the B e l g i a n s i d e . L a t e r when 
I had an a s s o c i a t i o n w i t h the Kennedy a d m i n i s t r a t i o n v i s - a ?
v i s the formation of A f r i c a n p o l i c y , so was i n t e r e s t i n g t o 
compare the a t t i t u d e s of d i f f e r e n t c o u n t r i e s toward post-
independence p o l i c i e s . 
JSS That does r a i s e one other q u e s t i o n . Kennedy became 
P r e s i d e n t r i g h t i n the middle of the Congo c r i s i s and there 
was, I r e a l l y b e l i e v e , a d i s t i n c t s u b s t a n t i v e change i n U.S. 
p o l i c y toward the Congo. Were you i n a p o s i t i o n t o advise 
the Kennedy a d m i n i s t r a t i o n on A f r i c a and i n p a r t i c u l a r on 
the Congo? 
DA W e l l , yes, and no. I was p a r t of the f i v e man t a s k f o r c e 
t h a t George B a l l s e t up. We were r e s p o n s i b l e f o r d r a f t i n g 
the i n i t i a l Kennedy p o l i c y f o r A f r i c a . 
JSS Before the inauguration? 
DA Before the i n a u g u r a t i o n . I t h i n k the other members of t h a t 
19 
committee were Ruth Sloan, James Coleman, Vernon McKay, and 
someone from the American Metals Climax, whose name I've 
f o r g o t t e n . He was supposedly the spokesman f o r C e n t r a l 
A f r i c a n a f f a i r s and the Congo. But he d i d n ' t know very much 
about the Congo per se but was very shrewd about copper and 
what was going on i n the Katanga. And at the time, as I 
r e c a l l , the two main preoccupations were w i t h C e n t r a l 
A f r i c a n F e d e r a t i o n and Guinea-Ghana-Mali , i . e . the 
group of the l e f t , how f a r l e f t i t would go. Of course I 
remember best d i s c u s s i n g about what should be the American 
r o l e toward Ghana i f the move t o the l e f t continued, 
e s p e c i a l l y i n terms of the V o l t a development scheme. My 
view was not t o r e a c t too much and c e r t a i n l y not i n a way 
t h a t would p l a y i n t o the hands of the extreme l e f t i n Ghana. 
At the time, of course the ' l e f t ' produced a c e r t a i n degree 
of paranoia. On the ground "the l e f t " tended t o disappear 
very r a p i d l y . And a good deal of what was c a l l e d A f r i c a n 
S o c i a l i s m was simply s t a t e c a p i t a l i s m w i t h people p l u n d e r i n g 
the s t a t e q u i t e h a p p i l y from the i n s i d e . On the whole t h a t 
advice was taken. Then I became a member of the A f r i c a n 
A d v i s o r y C o u n c i l o r something l i k e t h a t . I t met 
p e r i o d i c a l l y . There was a p a r t i c u l a r l y b r i g h t A s s i s t a n t 
S e c r e t a r y of S t a t e under Soapy W i l l i a m s would p e r i o d i c a l l y 
ask about s p e c i f i c t h i n g s . Perhaps the most important i s s u e 
was the V o l t a scheme. The V o l t a scheme was gave 
e x t r a o r d i n a r i l y f a v o r a b l e terms t o the K a i s e r C o r p o r a t i o n . 
20 
The o r i g i n a l aluminum company t h a t was supposed t o go i n t o 
i t was Canadian, A l c o a , but they withdrew. Once they 
withdrew the Ghanaians panicked a b i t s i n c e the was t o 
be t h e i r main developmental c e n t e r p i e c e a f t e r independence, 
a token of t h e i r e n t r y i n t o what could be regarded as the 
developmental world as d i s t i n c t from the world of 
n a t i o n a l i s m . (In f a c t t h a t i s the way t h a t Nkrumah 
presented i t through K. A. Gbedmah, h i s M i n i s t e r of Finance 
t o the U n i t e d S t a t e s and l e a s t through the person of 
A d l a i Stevenson, whom I o r i g i n a l l y met i n Gbedemah's house 
i n Accra and then got t o know again i n Chicago. (I was 
t e a c h i n g i n the U n i v e r s i t y of Chicago i n those days.) 
JSS That was i n h i s lawyer c a p a c i t y ? 
DA No, as a p o l i t i c a l f i g u r e . He may have g i v e n l e g a l a d v ice. 
JSS I t ' s p o s s i b l e . 
DA But he was a t t h a t p o i n t a world f i g u r e . The V o l t a scheme 
was as you know q u i t e a remarkable scheme. I t i n c l u d e d the 
Akosombo dam t o generate s u f f i c i e n t h y d r o - e l e c t r i c i t y f o r 
p r o c e s s i n g b a u x i t e which Ghana had a great abundance. A 
huge new harbor was t o be b u i l t a t Tema which I remember 
o r i g i n a l l y as a f i s h i n g v i l l a g e some t h i r t y m i l e s or so from 
Ac c r a . I t c r e a t e d the l a r g e s t man-made l a k e i n the world. 
For i r r i g a t i o n purposes the p l a n was t o f l o o d the Accra 
p l a i n s which were a l t e r n a t i v e l y very dry or very wet. The 
whole p l a n f i r e d t h e im a g i n a t i o n of Nkrumah. The 
c o n s e r v a t i v e o p p o s i t i o n t o Nkrumah opposed i t on the grounds 
21 
t h a t t h i s was an i m p e r i a l i s t p l o t Nkrumah d i d n ' t take k i n d l y 
t o t h i s s o r t of o p p o s i t i o n . So there was a k i n d of n a t u r a l 
r e a c h i n g out between the Kennedy a d m i n i s t r a t i o n people, the 
K a i s e r C o r p o r a t i o n , the B r i t i s h who were supposed t o finance 
the dam, and Nkrumah h i m s e l f , and the Convention People's 
P a r t y . A l l of these t h i n g s were taken as p o s i t i v e 
i l l u s t r a t i o n s of pragmatism, and t h a t r a d i c a l i s m shouldn't 
be taken too s e r i o u s l y . At the same time, Nkrumah was doing 
something which was indeed q u i t e r a d i c a l . One of the 
reasons he wanted a l l t h i s development was t o strengthen h i s 
p o s i t i o n , and enable him t o prepare f o r h i s "second coming." 
The f i r s t was h i s r e t u r n from e x i l e and t a k i n g over the 
country. The second was t o assume the l i b e r a t o r of a l l 
of A f r i c a . He had f o r t h i s purpose e s t a b l i s h e d what he 
c a l l e d m i n i s t e r s ' p l e n i p o t e n t i a r y f o r t r a d e union 
o r g a n i z a t i o n s , women's o r g a n i z a t i o n s , a l l the v o l u n t a r y 
o r g a n i z a t i o n s which he now took over by the Pa r t y and Ghana 
government. These ambassadors p l e n i p o t e n t i a r y were halfway 
between being o f f i c i a l s of the government and 
r e p r e s e n t a t i v e s of p r i v a t e or v o l u n t a r y a s s o c i a t i o n s (which 
were no longer v o l u n t a r y . ) These became h i s instruments f o r 
p e n e t r a t i n g A f r i c a . He began t o r e l y on S o v i e t t r a i n e d 
r e g i m e n t a l guards where p r e v i o u s l y the army had been under 
B r i t i s h o f f i c e r s (who brought the Ghanaian f o r c e s t o the 
Congo I might add). When General Alexander was f i r e d a l l 
began t o change. He a l s o brought i n groups of Chinese under 
22 
Huang Hua, the f i r s t Chinese ambassador t o Ghana, (who had 
been Edgar Snow's t r a n s l a t o r ) and who e v e n t u a l l y became the 
f o r e i g n m i n i s t e r of China. Huang Hua helped t o organize two 
t e r r o r i s t t r a i n i n g camps. Then Americans got wind of these 
goings on a t the same time t h a t companies l i k e P i l l s b u r y 
were encountering o f f i c i a l o p p o s i t i o n from the Ghana 
government which opposed t h e i r i n v e s t i n g i n a c e r e a l s 
growing and p r o c e s s i n g p r o j e c t . Many other s m a l l e r 
companies were a l s o t r y i n g t o i n v e s t . They came up a g a i n s t 
the k i n d of r e s i s t a n c e t h a t many American i n v e s t o r s found 
w i t h the Chinese I t was j u s t i m p o s s i b l e t o get anyplace. 
More than the r h e t o r i c of Nkrumah began t o move t o the l e f t . 
So on the one hand he c a r r i e d on these very s u c c e s s f u l and 
amicable r e l a t i o n s h i p s w i t h Frank Knight of what was c a l l e d 
V a l c o , the aluminum company, both the r h e t o r i c and the 
a c t u a l p r a c t i c e of the Ghana government was i n c r e a s i n g l y 
troublesome i n the U n i t e d S t a t e s . Both Chinese and S o v i e t 
i n f l u e n c e was i n c r e a s i n g r a t h e r r a p i d l y . At the same time 
M a l i , then perhaps the most S t a l i n i s t country i n West A f r i c a 
and Guinea h e a v i l y pro-communist, made over Beach other 
e s s e n t i a l l y . T h i s looked bad. I remember being c a l l e d i n 
t o c o n s u l t on whether or not the U n i t e d S t a t e s should p u l l 
out o f the V o l t a scheme and I advised a t t h a t time no, 
because I thought we'd want t o come back a t a l a t e r p o i n t 
and i t would be v e r y d i f f i c u l t . The V o l t a P r o j e c t was an 
important h o l d over the Ghanaians which we would l o s e i f we 
23 
p u l l e d out. The i r o n y of the s i t u a t i o n was t h a t the 
o r i g i n a l r a t i o n a l e of the scheme was t o use the b a u x i t e 
r e s e r v e s i n Ghana. But these were never used. I t was found 
t o be too expensive t o mine them and t r a n s p o r t them from 
where they were t o the smelter. So they used b a u x i t e from 
Guinea i n s t e a d . 
JSS There i s one Ghanaian who had a r a t h e r important r o l e i n the 
Congo whose name i s Gardiner. I wonder d i d you know him? 
DA Yes, I knew him very w e l l . A very i n t e r e s t i n g man. He was 
o r i g i n a l l y an extramurals l e c t u r e r i n N i g e r i a . That's where 
I f i r s t met him. An extramurals l e c t u r e r teaches u n i v e r s i t y 
e x t e n s i o n courses. He was a person w i t h a great sense of 
per s o n a l p r o p r i e t y and d i g n i t y . He was b i t t e r l y opposed t o 
Nkrumah. He thought t h a t Nkrumah was a cheat and a f o o l . 
However, e v e n t u a l l y Gardiner became C h i e f Establishment 
S e c r e t a r y i n Guana and i n charge of the f i r s t A f r i c a n i z a t i o n 
program. He was h i g h l y regarded and worked w e l l w i t h the 
B r i t i s h t o make the t r a n s i t i o n . Once t h a t t r a n s i t i o n was 
reasonably complete and Gardiner had A f r i c a n i z e d the c i v i l 
s e r v i c e , i t became q u i t e apparent t h a t he had peopled the 
c i v i l s e r v i c e w i t h those who would be r e s i s t e n t t o 
p o l i t i c i z a t i o n . E x a c t l y what Nkrumah d i d not want. At t h a t 
p o i n t Gardner became very v u l n e r a b l e . He was f i r e d , and was 
under a c l o u d f o r a w h i l e . E v e n t u a l l y he headed up the 
UNDP. 
JSS That's r i g h t , he became a UN employee. 
24 
DA When he was young, when I f i r s t knew him he was t r e a t e d i n a 
d i s m i s s i v e way both by the B r i t i s h and by other more 
p o l i t i c a l s u c c e s s f u l A f r i c a n s . He had an e x t r a o r d i n a r y 
degree of p r i d e , was extremely i n t e l l i g e n t and c l o s e 
mouthed, a ve r y q u i e t person, I t h i n k he a l s o had a l o t of 
r e a l rage b o t t l e d up i n s i d e and p o l i t i c a l ambition which he 
mastered v e r y w e l l . He was too i n t e l l i g e n t and too 
c o n t r o l l e d and got on too w e l l w i t h Europeans f o r Nkrumah 
j u s t t o get r i d of him. But Nkrumah got him out of the 
country and kept him out. 
JSS Thank you v e r y much. 
DA You're welcome. 
25 
NAME INDEX 
Alexander, Gen. H.T 24 
B a l l , George 21 
Bunche, Ralph 19 
B u s t i n , Edouard 13 
Cohen, Andrew 2 0 
Coleman, James 21 
Gardiner, Robert 1 , 2 5 , 2 6 
G a z i n g i , Antoine 4 
Gbedemah, K . A 22 
Huang Hua 24 
Kasavubu, Joseph 4, 6, 7 
K i t c h e n , Helen 19 
Lumumba, P a t r i c e 4, 6, 7, 13, 17 
Maque, Jacques 11, 13 
McKay, Vernon 21 
Mobutu, Joseph-Desire 7, 8 
Nkrumah, Kwame 16, 22-26 
O'Brien, Conor C r u i s e l , 13, 15-17 
Sloane, Ruth 21 
Snow, Edgar 24 
Stevenson, A d l a i 22 
Tshombe, Moise 4, 8, 11 
26 
UNITED NATIONS ORAL HISTORY PROJECT 
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